NSFW-S2-05 - Cat Ross

Transcript is AI generated and contains errors!  

Matthew Holliday: [00:00:00] Welcome to the not safe for work photography podcast, where we explore the art and business of erotic photography. Today, we're interviewing Kat Ross, a multidisciplinary artist who has been posting some interesting text posts on her Instagram that made me want to get her in here to talk about them.

How are you doing today, Kat?

Cat Ross: I'm doing great. How about yourself?

Matthew Holliday: I'm doing phenomenal. It's Friday afternoon and I get two whole days to myself. So excited.

Cat Ross: That's awesome. Yeah. Always nice to have a break.

Matthew Holliday: Yeah, yeah. So as always, we typically start with kind of your history and background. So why did you end up in modeling?

Cat Ross: I ended up in modeling because I spent most of my childhood in performing arts. I did musical theater and acting and a little bit of modeling. When I got to [00:01:00] college, I really didn't have time to be in full time productions like I wanted to and go on auditions like I wanted to. So I still wanted that sort of creative Actory outlets.

And I had had experience with modeling from the past. So I think I knew a couple of photographers and I signed up for model mayhem, which was big at the time and I got interest and it just kind of blossomed from there.

Matthew Holliday: So how long ago was that? I think you said something like 15 years on your Instagram,

Cat Ross: Yeah, it's been a while. I mean, I have I have like two different official start dates, but I think I consider I think I consider, yeah, something like 2007, 2008, 2009 in there as when I really started, started.

Matthew Holliday: which I'm, was that under 18 or over?

Cat Ross: Oh no, that's, that was over 18.

Matthew Holliday: All right. Well, you mentioned the child star [00:02:00] stuff. So I wasn't sure

Cat Ross: Yeah, yeah, I hear ya.

Matthew Holliday: because I did. I, cause I was curious about some of the things you said about. Especially some of the things that photographers have said to you and was wondering if that stuff started before 18.

Cat Ross: I had, I remember one shoot from before I was 18 where, you know, it was, it was for a portfolio, but my dad was there and I think at one point the photographer was just like, oh, like pull up the skirt, like scrunch it up, like you're showing a little. And my dad was like, excuse me, why?

Why are we asking a 17 year old to? Bye. Bye.

Matthew Holliday: Yeah,

Cat Ross: So, yeah, I think it starts, it starts as soon as, I don't know, your desirable, I guess.

Matthew Holliday: Alright, so I'm going to go off on a tangent already, we're not we've we're already at the second question we're going off on a tangent.

Cat Ross: Okay.

Matthew Holliday: the photographer backed off because your dad was there. Do

Cat Ross: Right.

Matthew Holliday: you think he would have backed off if your dad hadn't been [00:03:00] there.

Cat Ross: I, I don't know. I mean, it was for a small it was by a small headshot company. So I, I hope that if I had pushed back, it, it would have been Too risky of a situation of, you know, versus if he had been an independent photographer, but, you know, it's hard to say.

Matthew Holliday: Well, and I mean, and asking you to lift up your skirt a little bit to show a little more leg is a little different than other things that have been asked. So that's, that's, you know, yeah, I, I think I've shot with one 17 year old and she brought her mom,

Cat Ross: right.

Matthew Holliday: fine and something I would highly encourage to I mean, heck, if you're 35 and you want to bring your mom now, that's fine.

We can sit and talk before the shoot and hang out.

Cat Ross: Definitely. Yeah 

Matthew Holliday: no escorts is definitely something that's been recommended over and over again by models.

Cat Ross: absolutely. Yeah, I think I think it's even more popular now than it was when I started and I'm really glad for [00:04:00] that because there I used to see a lot of pushback from a lot of, you know, people who are widely regarded as very good photographers and very well respected. And I, yeah, I never knew what to make of that.

So I'm glad to see that there's more pushback.

Matthew Holliday: I've seen some, one of the photographers we had on here we didn't get a chance to talk about it cause we ran over, but he actually was robbed by an

Cat Ross: Oh my God. Oh my God.

Matthew Holliday: So he's very anti escort, which I can, after a specific example like that but every time I've had an escort, they've generally been, you know, quiet, stayed out of the way.

Yeah,

Cat Ross: I mean, it's, it's always an issue in a freelance industry of knowing who you're dealing with. And I mean, but you know, here's a thought I've always had, which is like, it's, it's my dark sense of humor, which is just like, man, these guys are really trusting that none of us are like, [00:05:00] Serial killers, and I don't like they're just opening up their private spaces and as much as usually the risk is the other way around it.

It is funny to think that, like, I think these guys don't even think about their own safety a lot of the time when they're inviting, you know, just a model. So it is interesting to hear about what can happen when things go wrong with esports.

Matthew Holliday: you could bring up a taser or a gun and then physical strength doesn't necessarily mean anything if

Cat Ross: This is true.

Matthew Holliday: or maybe this goes into what they say, what do they call it? The confidence of the middle aged white man.

Cat Ross: Oh, I I had not heard that, but

Matthew Holliday: Yeah, yeah, you're not wrong. Like generally speaking, these are the same guys that would absolutely not invite a stranger in.

Cat Ross: yeah,

Matthew Holliday: If they met on the street, they wouldn't just be like, Hey why don't you come up to my place and hang out and have a drink?

Cat Ross: Right. Yeah. So it's, it's a weird, it's a [00:06:00] weird dance that you do.

Matthew Holliday: So what is your favorite type of modeling to do?

Cat Ross: I think it ebbs and flows, but I really like doing conceptual things, you know, brings in that acting aspect. But I also really like just beautiful, simple portraits. That show the person's personality and more than anything, show off the photographer's engagement and their understanding of lighting and color and the environment and tone and all of that.

Matthew Holliday: I'm a huge fan of portraits myself. There's not, as far as I can tell, there's not a market at all for that type of thing. Portraits tends to be a passion project from photographers that really, really care about that specifically.

Cat Ross: There can be, I mean it's not exactly portraits, but headshot photography for either corporate or actors, that kind of thing, that kind of thing is out there. But yeah, I think portrait, [00:07:00] portraiture is now this sort of thing that is relegated to, you're either an artist that is submitting to galleries or you're shooting for a magazine and it's sort of that editorial portrait.

Yeah, there are, there are ways, but it's all difficult for sure. Yeah.

Matthew Holliday: modern modeling mayhem profile, I would wager that that is not the type of work most people reach out to you to do. What do you most commonly get asked about doing?

Cat Ross: Oh, I mean, there's been different periods I think, I don't know if there's even a most, I think for a while the most was just kind of boudoir when I was younger actually, and this is interesting, it's a direct line to, you know, our, our own government voting down SESTA FOSTA, all these people think they can shut down, you know, You know, the sex industry and make [00:08:00] the world a safer place.

All it did was make the internet a more closed space and I can't post nudes anywhere, can't do any of that. So yeah, there was a lot more art nude modeling back when the internet was still a place where people could be full grown adults and not be horribly offended by an art nude, but unfortunately we don't have that anymore.

I don't actually get asked for Art Nude a whole lot. When I do get asked for nude, it's usually erotic, and it's usually, these are usually the guys who are like, oh my god, they just bought a camera, and they see that I do certain genres, and they're like, hey, come over, shoot an hour of erotic. And it's like, How about no, this already sounds sketchy.

Matthew Holliday: Yeah.

Cat Ross: that's what I get a lot of. I get a lot, and I also get a lot of just [00:09:00] inappropriate stuff. I have gotten a lot of weird stuff on Model Mayhem, a lot of I'll get photographers who clearly aren't photographers or even male models every once in a while will just be like, Hey, what's up? And it's like do you know where you are?

Are you lost?

Matthew Holliday: This isn't Hinge for Models,

Cat Ross: Right?

Matthew Holliday: you

Cat Ross: So, yeah, that's, that's where that profile description came from because just I've been on that site for such a long time and I've met some really good people through it, but there, there is a trend right now. We're just. Kind of I'm yeah, I hate to say it, but weirdos are kind of coming out of the woodworks and trying to, you know, get access to professional models and it's a bummer and it's very draining.

Matthew Holliday: Yeah. I definitely think, although I don't know, maybe this is, maybe this is just showing my age, but I feel like there's a whole generation of people that grew up with Playboy and Penthouse [00:10:00] and has the idea that they could be that type of photographer or that that type of photographer is actually this huge, sexy thing that is super hot and super exciting.

Cat Ross: Yeah, I mean, I think. That's that's so having that idea is one thing and having that as like an aspiration where you're inspired by that photography and you, you know, graduate high school or college or whatever. You pick up the camera, right? And you learn the basics, and you learn lighting, and you shoot all kinds of different things, but still in the back of your head is like, you know, I really would like to do that kind of photography because, you know, in one way or another, it inspired me when I was younger.

And that's, that's one route to doing that kind of photography, which is totally fine and respectful, and like a normal head space about it. And then there's these guys who are like, [00:11:00] man, those self care sessions really filled up my empty space in my day and made me feel like a man and I, I, I need to feel that sense of, you know, satisfaction again.

And I saw this online account where this dude is taking pictures of all these hot chicks and I could be that guy. And it's like. First of all, those guys aren't those guys. And if they are, they're probably doing things that are a little shady and a little coercive and a little not professional. That's my personal opinion.

And I have to say some of the most explicit work I've ever done is some of the least sexy shooting I have ever done. With, with. You know, a very professional person on the other end and I think as long as you are professional [00:12:00] Physicians really aren't sexy. They're very technical and Kind of funny because you know, you're you're using your body and all these silly positions and stuff And it's it's just kind of ridiculous.

And you know, I think I think there are people who are very interested and excited by sexuality, but they go about it in a mature and respectful way and they understand that like, it's not the person on the other end of the camera's job to make them feel fulfilled with their job. You know, they get fulfillment out of taking pictures or they don't.

So that's, that's kind of where I am on that. You know, I think it's totally fine for people to be. inspired by glamour and playboy and, you know, I'm, I'm interested in women. I don't mind seeing sexy pictures of women, obviously. I think at this point, we've all, we've all been [00:13:00] given a little bit of that aesthetic of playboy.

It's, it's in our cultural blood. So I think A lot of us are drawn to that, but it, it's not because we want to just like, be surrounded by hot people, it's, it's you want to create a feeling, you want to create an aesthetic, you want to create beautiful images in a certain genre, and that's separate from, you know, who you are, and, It might make you feel sexy in your private life, but like, you don't bring that, it's, it's sort of like how they say leave it on, leave it all and, I think you have to do that.

You kind of have to take your inspiration for what makes the shoe quote unquote sexy. You take those ideas, but you leave like your own sexual motivation behind, you know, you have to separate those two things out.

Matthew Holliday: Yeah, I've shot my wife and those pictures are [00:14:00] not anywhere on the internet. And I've shot with, you know, other friends before that.

Cat Ross: Mm-Hmm.

Matthew Holliday: And I remember the first time I was going to shoot with a dude model. I was really concerned. I was like, Oh no, this is good. You know, cause having done more personal style stuff, but you're right.

Like once you get there, like all that is gone. Gone.

Cat Ross: Yeah.

Matthew Holliday: I guess, I guess unless you, I guess, unless you come in there with that mindset where that's your goal,

Cat Ross: Right, right. And I

Matthew Holliday: yeah, but if you're focused on lighting and you're focused on positioning and you're focused on, is the camera correct? And is my exposure correct?

And you've got too many things in your brain.

Cat Ross: yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

Matthew Holliday: So I have attended a couple of workshops and you'd think like, if you were examining it from the outside, you're like, all right, there are. Potentially, you know, half a dozen or more like naked people running around in this place. like, Oh, that would be the hottest thing that I've ever been to in my life.

Cat Ross: Right.

Matthew Holliday: And it really is not cause most of the photographers are running back and forth trying to [00:15:00] like get their lighting set up. And now obviously there's no doubt some people that are treating it very differently than the rest of us. But

Cat Ross: Sure. Sure. Yeah. No, it's, it is funny. Workshops can be funny. You know, I, I'm sad that I'm not really doing workshops anymore because they, they can be fun and they can be so silly. Yeah, I wouldn't classify them as sexy.

Matthew Holliday: did you ever say, did you make a specific decision not to do workshops going forward or is it just kind of fallen out of your repertoire?

Cat Ross: yeah, I think, I think I made a big decision after a certain series of workshops that it was as far as like the boudoir and like nude and stuff goes, yeah, I kind of took a step back from that partially because of you know, I was impersonated and they were asking for pictures from photographers and photographers from these workshops are just [00:16:00] like sending all these Explicit images of me to this impersonator and yeah, so I was just like, you know what, let me, let me not provide so much ammunition to

Matthew Holliday: So, so let's shift over to that impersonator. Cause that's definitely one of the things that I wanted to talk about. You've posted a couple of screenshots on your Instagram. Somebody pretending to be you and asking for the full sets

Cat Ross: right.

Matthew Holliday: is, is, do you have more details on what happened?

Cat Ross: I really, I really don't have that much more information. You know, this, this person altered a letter of my email address and because of that, it was really hard to report them to Google because it's not like it was a false email address or anything like that. But yeah, they, they just. We're going around to different [00:17:00] photographers who are not, you know, counting on people not being aware, not being awake, not, not being on guard, and just asking for, you know, all these images and, you know, I have a lot of feelings, a lot of people are like, oh, it's happening to everybody, it's not a big deal, but it's, it's like, you know, this person is using the language.

And that makes me suspicious that this is someone in the community, but it also could just be some jerk who's used to stealing images from people. Models who have sets to provide and maybe they know the language that way, but yeah, it's, it's a mess. They were trying to establish adult accounts under my name and make money that way.

And then there was one follow up that was, somebody asked, they asked a photographer I'd worked with if they'd still consider shooting with me. And And [00:18:00] that, that was when it got a little creepy because I was like, all right, what, what is the motivation? And the only thing I could come up with is that they would know that models ask for deposits, and if they booked a shoot, they could collect a deposit from someone thinking they were booking a shoot with me.

Yeah, I have no idea whether or not that happened to anyone. Hopefully it didn't. Hopefully somebody would reach out to me if it did, but yeah, it's, it's shady. It's weird because they're using the language of the industry but they're, they've seemed to have disappeared for the time being you know, I, I actually got to the point where I like sat down with family and was like, listen, if I need to, can you help me with a lawyer?

And yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm thankful that I have a family and small social circle that knows what I do, that accepts what I do and is and has my [00:19:00] back because it's been so chaotic the past couple of years.

Matthew Holliday: Yeah.

Cat Ross: I, I might've quit at this point without that support,

Matthew Holliday: It's an interesting scam. Why go to the trouble of hiring and paying models yourself to take pictures when you can just steal the sets and set up your own site? I've been going about this all wrong.

Cat Ross: Right. Yeah. Okay.

Matthew Holliday: so let's, let's drop back into the questions. We went off on a side rail for a little bit. So what does a well thought out message from a photographer to a model look like? What, what, what should be included in that message?

Cat Ross: So the way I approach this is really, I, I mean, I haven't been in a corporate setting in over 10 years, so I'm not sure how

Matthew Holliday: You lucky girl.

Cat Ross: I know, I know but I, I kind of expect with, of course, the details that come with modeling and photography. A normal professional, cordial email, like, Hi, [00:20:00] how are you?

I'm, I'm interested in, you know, shooting this type of genre. You know, with this type of styling, an idea of what the location may be, because I know, you know, booking studios can be tricky and counting on weather can be tricky, but, you know, an idea of where it's going to be an idea of dates. You know either ask me for rates or tell me up front immediately that you're looking for a trade project because that is that is kind of the most awkward part.

I think for a lot of people, it certainly was for me for a long time. So yeah, it's, it's really just the basics being cordial, introducing yourself you know, a little bit of background. I, I know people go through text messages and emails a lot faster than I'm used to. But I like when people give a little bit of [00:21:00] background with the work they've done.

It lets me know that they're focused on the work. And yeah, it gives me an idea about them. It's, it's personable. It makes me feel like, okay, this isn't just some rando looking to beef up their Instagram or the tick tock or whatever. And we're going to do real work together.

Matthew Holliday: know. I tend to be a little too verbose on those initial messages. Sometimes I'll be like, and you know, here's my background and here's what I want to do. And then I look back and I was like, Oh, this is like four paragraphs. This is maybe a little much. Yeah.

Cat Ross: I have heard the same thing from another photographer and like, a couple of other photographers, but, you know, I, I don't speak for all models or probably a lot of models on this, but I do, I do like getting a fair amount of information.

Matthew Holliday: Just say you save all the details about the concepts and everything until the second or third message when she said she's interested or he

Cat Ross: Yeah, exactly.

Matthew Holliday: speaking on that. Actually, you talked about. Messages for male models. I had a Sean stone, [00:22:00] a male model on a couple of months ago, and he said he gets a lot of the same attention from gay male models gets a lot of aggressive aggressive requests and stuff like that.

Cat Ross: Does, does he get it from women as well or just, just guys?

Matthew Holliday: I think he just said cause he does a lot of work with he shoots with a lot of shoots for a lot of Photographers that are interested in the male physique and,

Cat Ross: yeah. Yeah.

Matthew Holliday: deals with a lot of the same kind of requests. And

Cat Ross: You know, that, that sadly doesn't surprise me.

Matthew Holliday: yeah, I didn't, I guess, I guess it did surprise me, but it shouldn't have

Cat Ross: Yeah. So I, it's, it's, I happen to, to know a photographer who, who used to work with someone who someone who, who was a big name in the photography industry and did ad campaigns for like Abercrombie and. You know, a lot of these skinny, you know, boyish [00:23:00] looking models, yeah, they, they, they get picked on and, and harassed a bit too is what I've heard too, the grapevine.

So, you know, I, I totally feel my, my harping on women is mostly because that's, that's the body I'm in. And that's, you know, My experience, and it's at the forefront of my thought, but I do have a lot of empathy for, for anyone who goes through that for any guys who are dealing with harassment or all the thorns that come with this industry.

Matthew Holliday: Yeah. Yep.

Cat Ross: Yeah.

Matthew Holliday: All right. Final question in this kind of this themed area. Do you think there are enough serious art photographers to support very many traveling slash professional models?

Cat Ross: Oh man. I don't know that I have. The scope to gauge accurately right now what it feels like is, you know, art, art is [00:24:00] being aggressively devalued at an alarming rate. And I don't think there are a lot of artists out there. You know, because it's, it's kind of a, a fountain, it's a cascade, and when people at the top of the art world are doing well and demanding that kind of work, and there's all these artistic grants floating around, and that kind of thing, there, there is, there are times when, yes, I believe there have been enough Genuinely creative people to keep things going.

But right now I don't feel confident that that's the case. I think that there's, there's been a lot of change and a lot of conflation and I myself was very resistant to any trade for a couple of years there which was like a confluence of being taken advantage [00:25:00] of and work being devalued and, you know, just having to make ends meet.

And, and carrying the ethos of someone that was not, did not have my best intentions at heart but I do think trade, unfortunately, is a really important part of how we keep the creative spirit going. And all of this, unfortunately which is not to say that models and photographers shouldn't be getting paid, but I think, I think maybe we all need to be a little bit more strategic about what is being done.

Payed what is trade and how we work together and independently to create a better flow of resources and projects.

Matthew Holliday: So I had a thought about this while you were talking. Because I think later, I mentioned, you know, guys with camera and [00:26:00] protographers, I think you called them.

Cat Ross: Yeah,

Matthew Holliday: It occurs to me that there is a group kind of in the middle. I don't know what to call them. Hobbyist, hobbyist seems like the wrong, but they're like leisure class photographers, basically upper middle class people who have the extra income in a print, you know, at a previous time, you know, four or 500 years ago.

These are people that would. You know, sponsor or pay, you know, the equivalent now of like 000 to an artist and they'd be a patron of the arts or a supporter of the arts, but they weren't rich enough to like, have a, have like an in house artist working for them. Like some, some people did back then.

Cat Ross: Right. Right. Yeah,

Matthew Holliday: Do you see a lot of those people that are, you know, upper middle class, they're, they're fairly serious about art, but they're not professional.

Like they're not making their living off of this.

Cat Ross: I absolutely do. I know. I think that has become maybe, maybe the majority of people that I find. Right. [00:27:00] Really have the time and the money to, to do what they're doing. And, you know, I've, I've had a good and bad personality mix in there, but I've mostly had good and there is someone on Staten Island that I've been working with since literally like the beginning.

And he's always been consistent and steady and he's a good guy and he just Beautiful work. He's not very active on social media, but yeah, there's that kind of person. And I think they're a necessary part of this ecosystem and they're their presence shouldn't be undervalued at the same time.

We have to take a little bit of caution, I think, with that kind of person, because they hold a lot of. a lot of relative power. And there, there are some instances I've seen that, and I'm sure people will disagree with me on this and call me a little precious for holding this [00:28:00] opinion, but you know, I've seen guys who own studios who are decent enough guys themselves and look out for women seemingly, but they'll have guys.

At their studio, who are maybe not the, the most well behaved and maybe have really, you know, there are some weird stories that come attached to them and you're kind of like, all right, where does this fit in? And, you know, is this ethical? Is this not ethical? Like you got to make money to keep the studio running, but you're still kind of exposing us to a dirt bag that he pays.

He's. He's never touched anybody, but he says a lot of weird, you know, it's like all these weird areas and I think some dudes like that you can be like back off and they'll be like, okay, all right. I tested a boundary. I got shocked. I won't do it again. [00:29:00] And then there are some guys who just kind of keep pushing that envelope until, until something bad happens.

And you know, it, it does. There are these guys that kind of skirt by for a long time until something's screenshotable or visible happens. And that's, that's really what I do. I am most concerned with the people who are obvious you know, who obviously don't care about people. They, they get, they get a bad enough reputation that it seems like people start to distance themselves.

But there are some people who stay under the radar for a long time.

Matthew Holliday: Seem like those would be the most more dangerous ones. The ones that are not dumb enough to, you know, be blatant about it. All

Cat Ross: Yeah.

Matthew Holliday: right. I don't think I want to dive into that any deeper. Although I feel like we could keep talking about that, but if we do that, we're not going to run into any of the [00:30:00] more stuff that we talked about that we went out of that's on the list. So one of the posts that caught my eye was about only shooting up to implied with photographers.

You have not known a long time. Given the way that post is phrased, that implies to me that that is a change in your boundaries.

Cat Ross: Yes. Yes, it is. And that is partly motivated by the impersonator. I was talking about you know, if there is this supply of like, just all these photos of me completely naked that all of these photographers have, you know, that I've met through workshops that I've, you know, just met in passing. It.

It's, I've learned the hard way that there's like an arsenal of sensitive material out there that anybody can gain access to and it's not like I have any shame at this point, but it is a thing of like, okay, [00:31:00] their work is being stolen and used to For someone else to make money, my work is being stolen and used for someone else to make money.

They don't know it's out there, and they might have a corporate jobs that they care about that. This will reflect poorly on you know, there's all kinds of. Ways it could go badly because, you know, we're storing things on the cloud, we're storing things in our digital files that anybody could find. Everybody's got a VPN.

So even if you try to track where someone's Stealing things from you really have to get like a personal investigator. It's it's just kind of crazy the the flow and the vulnerability of data, including imagery at this point. And that was yeah, that was more a decision. That was based on just like rational, got to batten down the hatches, got to protect yourself, got to protect your intellectual property.

Then it [00:32:00] was like, oh, I don't want, I don't feel safe doing this anymore. I mean, it was a little bit of that for sure, but and, you know, just also, like, I think the way Unfortunately, women's bodies have become such a topic of politics in the past few years. It's also sort of a safeguard of like, you know, I don't know you, I don't know what you think I do or do not deserve as a human being.

And maybe I just don't, you know, as I get older, I just don't feel like being vulnerable with people that I don't know in that same way. It's multifaceted. It's multifaceted. It's multifaceted.

Matthew Holliday: Yeah, I, I was thinking about that. I had some pictures I took with somebody when she was 18. And frankly, I was like 25. So almost 20 years ago. And I recently asked her if I could share those cause we were pretty close friends. They were, they were not, they're not saucy. They were, they were, they were fairly tame as far, but you know, it's [00:33:00] bikini pictures and stuff like that.

And she had to think about it a little bit. And it occurred to me that the decisions you make when you're, you know, 18, 20, 22, 23 that, that we're, I feel like we're making these decisions with the same decision matrix we would have done in the eighties, like in the eighties, someone could take a Polaroid of you and you could feel daring having done something, you know, Fun and exciting.

And the worst it could happen is it could be shown around to your group of friends, which would be embarrassing,

Cat Ross: Right.

Matthew Holliday: but now the Internet is forever. And it could pop up in 30 years or 40 years,

Cat Ross: Yeah.

Matthew Holliday: or the director of a company or your kids are in school and you're someone shows your kids your pictures,

Cat Ross: Yeah. Yeah. It's it's true. All kinds of things can happen. And I, you know, I was actually having a similar conversation with a different photographer lately and how, you know, he's reaching out and asking people. That he shot with a long time ago if they're okay [00:34:00] with it. And yeah, he's like, I have releases.

I don't have to ask them, but like, it's the, it's the decent thing to do. And I, I absolutely agree. And I think it's. I think I know you guys are not legally obligated to, but I just want you to know I think it's very special and it is greatly appreciated when photographers actually reach fast back out as a human and are like, Hey, are you okay with this?

I know things are different.

Matthew Holliday: I, and I've actually considered that it hasn't happened yet, but with this person I shot with, we were friends, she wanted to be a model and loved the modeling and I loved the photography part of it. There was no monetary exchange. So if she'd asked me to take it down, the answer would absolutely be yes. I have not had anybody asked me to take anything down that's from a page shoot and I haven't figured out what I'm going to do, but I've thought about it.

Cat Ross: Yeah, it's, it's tough. And I know it's tough for photographers because you know, someone signs a release. It's a legal document. That, that is the [00:35:00] case. And it's, it's true. It's funny that you say that we're working on like a matrix from the 80s because, yeah, I think, I think people are not. Thinking and, you know, you have the logical information of, like, the Internet is always going to be here.

You are taking photos. Those photos are going to go on the Internet. And, like, you know, it. But when you're younger times a little more, I don't know, compressed or something, things are just coming at you and you're taking opportunities and you're making decisions and life is just exciting. And you're not

Matthew Holliday: Now you're making me nostalgic.

Cat Ross: I know, I know. Don't mean to depress you on a Friday. But yeah, it's, it's like you don't see the full stretch of time in front of you and how things can change and develop. And, and honestly, God, how the internet has changed and developed. Like I was [00:36:00] absolutely okay with like back, I don't know if you ever used Tumblr, but Tumblr was a huge platform for a while and I was so comfortable in that space for the most part.

There were, there were some things that were touch and go like the way things are now with things being on the internet is a very different dynamic than how they were then with things. Being on the internet, you know, people are more, people are less personal, actually, people are less personal and more entitled to their opinion and more.

You know, just vocal with their opinions and they don't see people on the internet as people. It's like, it's like, we're all these weird avatars of ourselves and. People are vicious now. It's a different world. Yeah.

Matthew Holliday: something you commented on there actually makes me think [00:37:00] of something that I had later in the discussion, but I'm bringing it up now. On that, so one of the things I found really interesting about that post is a number of things that other people commented on it. One of them specifically commented on The use of yearly fees for use of likeness and how in some other industries, like, you know, and I assume I've obviously I've never worked in these, but I've heard, you know, and stuff like advertising and actor can sell their likeness to an advertising company.

And as long as the company uses it, they pay them a fee. 

Cat Ross: Right. Yeah. This

Matthew Holliday: so obviously that'd be tough to do here with everybody kind of scattered across a million different platforms, but I could see something like only fans or patrion. Yeah. Implementing something like this, where you have to, when you upload a picture, you have to call out the model. And if that set cells, then they would get a percentage of it.

Cat Ross: Yeah, I mean, I, I think that would be sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt

Matthew Holliday: no, [00:38:00] no, no, it's fine.

Cat Ross: No, I, I think that would be kind of a beautiful model because I do think that's. Part of the hostility sometimes between photographers and models is like. You know, you're both. Kind of putting yourself into this project. You both want to get paid I think a lot of things that photographers find especially with a platform like Onlyfans versus patreon

Women just amass followers, you know, you put a picture of yourself in a bikini or lingerie and the guys Just come and no pun intended. And and the photographers are kind of like stuck there. Like, okay, I have to upload like five different releases and five different forms of ID. And I have like five followers.

to every hundred of her followers. I don't have that many, but you know and they're just like, womp, [00:39:00] womp, this sucks. So I get that. So I would, I would, I think a revenue share like that would be a good idea. Yeah. Like just link, link the projects outright on the platform and compensate both people.

Matthew Holliday: And I think that would reduce the type of risk that each of them, because the, the main risk to photographers is you pay a model. And then, you know, worst case, you can't use it at all. Maybe you're a terrible photographer, or you forgot to put the card in the camera, or she says she doesn't want you to use them.

Or, you know, you pay the model for a time and you don't have anything you can use. And then the damage for the model is in reputational damage, potentially somebody using the content without their permission or in a way that wasn't envisioned.

Cat Ross: Yeah.

Matthew Holliday: And if there was a central, I guess, database or central protocol that kind of kept track, then maybe you'd be able to figure out.

When somebody put your stuff up on Patreon, we're only fans. Now, [00:40:00] obviously again, you couldn't spread across everything because it's the internet, new sites every day. But

Cat Ross: No, yeah, I do wish there were some kind of more unified implementation. I mean, with all the threats of AI, there is good use for AI. And maybe you know, I would hate to live in this world, but I think I think we're moving there. Unfortunately. You know, if you're a person that. Is someone whose face is constantly being uploaded to certain sites and stuff.

You know, maybe facial recognition could be a way to alert people when, you know, there's an image of you that just popped up. Is this you, did you post this? Is this yours? Or maybe, you know, for photographers, a certain watermark or a copyright or something that would go on the images that AI could recognize and be like, Hey, is this yours?

Did you post this? 

Matthew Holliday: That's interesting because there are I recently finished a book called all your face belongs to us

Cat Ross: Oh [00:41:00] God.

Matthew Holliday: yeah about a startup that's doing exactly, well, they're doing something similar with the facial recognition, trying to compile all the people in the world and be able to recognize anybody by their face,

Cat Ross: Oh my God.

Matthew Holliday: I didn't see that as a use case, but yeah, they could make some money, you know, asking models and people like, Hey could you identify everywhere that my face has been seen on the internet?

Cat Ross: Right? Yeah. I mean, I , I, I both would love to know and do not wanna know

Matthew Holliday: Cause you've got to give up your own privacy and provide your face to them. Although who knows how much privacy is left these days anyway.

Cat Ross: I know Siri knows all. Mm-Hmm.

Matthew Holliday: Yeah. All right. One of the other comments that I thought was interesting on there was some people talked about how modeling used to be back at the, we're going to go back to the 80s and 90s. And, but generally speaking, traditionally a model was paid for a specific purpose, like a catalog or a magazine article, or a, [00:42:00] you know.

adult shoot, but they knew when they walked into the shoot, ideally they knew what the photos would be used for. Whereas a lot of a lot of photographers today tend to shoot speculatively, I guess, where they're just like, ah, we're going to do a glamour shoot. And, you know, maybe it'll go up on my Patreon.

Maybe I'll be able to sell it. Maybe who knows?

Cat Ross: Yep. Yep.

Matthew Holliday: Do you, do you still get any shoots where it's for a specific use or is

Cat Ross: I mean,

Matthew Holliday: just a minor or super minor part?

Cat Ross: it is much more minor than it used to be, unfortunately. And I, I think that's a reflection of several things. You know, getting older, it happens. And also projects. Yeah. Projects are drying up. I've worked with someone for several years. Who does sci fi book covers and, you know, it's like, how much longer is this industry even going to last?

Because, you know, you can just plug in a prompt and there's your sci fi book cover.

Matthew Holliday: [00:43:00] Yeah,

Cat Ross: yeah, I, I, I feel like so I still do, to answer your question, simply, yes, I still get jobs that are specifically for things, for small brands, for an end purpose that is. It's definite, but it's a lot less than it used to be.

Matthew Holliday: so you did mention the generative AI thing, so I guess we can dive into that now. So I was thinking about who generative AI would hurt the most. Because it, it occurs to me that if you have enough reference material or reference images to train an AI, you can probably generate AI. an infinite amount of content based on a specific model.

So when this, I was thinking about the, the kind of the people that we were talking about before. So for a guy with camera, I don't think they're going to use generative AI. They want the experience. They want the fantasy, I think, not the, not the, I mean, the results [00:44:00] are cool, too. I don't know. Any thoughts on that?

Cat Ross: a good point. You know, my nefarious thoughts were like pretty much any guy who has a photo of your face. Who wants to can just, you know, plug it in and create nudes of you now, or whatever who knows.

But 

Matthew Holliday: not saying they wouldn't use them for that purpose after the fact, but, but a big part of it is the fantasy of them being a photographer.

Cat Ross: yeah, no, I think, I think you're right about that. That's an interesting point. I think that GWCs who don't really care who how the image comes out. They are probably going to want to continue to, yes, shoot with models in person because that's, that's the whole thing. You want to be close to the hot young chicks and have that experience.

Matthew Holliday: So the next group up, I was thinking kind of the hobbyist group. I don't [00:45:00] know. I don't know if they're doing this for the experience or if they're doing this for the, the art result, because if we're assuming that the generative AI is good enough to give you whatever you want to. As a result,

Cat Ross: Yeah, that's an interesting question. I think, I think that some of them are definitely going to play with it. In fact, I've actually seen some people in this category use it. You know. The photos I saw were just for fun, but I think that those people are going to use it out of curiosity. But I don't, again, I don't think they have like an end goal in mind.

It's just for the sake of seeing how it works. And I, I still haven't really dove into it, but even I am curious, you know, just from an aesthetic standpoint, I'm curious. But I don't, I don't want to feed the beast. Yeah,

Matthew Holliday: there's models you can download and run [00:46:00] on your local machine and therefore will not upload whatever you train it to.

Cat Ross: that's good.

Matthew Holliday: that's an option. So I don't, I don't know. I have mixed feelings on this because if your goal is purely the final product, you want a piece of art that looks in a specific way that conveys a specific feeling, then it seems like the medium doesn't matter,

Cat Ross: Yeah, it would be the easiest route. 

Matthew Holliday: But But for this group, since it's their hobby, I think that a sense of accomplishment is probably an important part of it, 

like a sense of actually doing something.

Cat Ross: I think you're right. Actually, I think they want to see that they have created something and it doesn't really matter how that creation happens. They just kind of want to, yeah, get the end goal as you're saying.

Matthew Holliday: And then finally, how about the professionals, the people who make a living off of [00:47:00] photographic arts? They are, they're going to be a lot more.

Cat Ross: Yeah,

Matthew Holliday: that have a very specific image in mind when they hire a model. They want to create something that is exacting. They're not, you know, hopefully not blasting away hundreds of times with a camera, while the model just moves through poses.

Cat Ross: I mean, I, I am sad to say that I have already, you know, and I, I try, I'm trying not to judge because it's, it's their career. And if this is what their agencies are telling them, they need to do, then they need to do it. But I have already seen a couple of professional photographers do that. using AI, incorporating AI in their work.

And man, I, I have feelings because I want to support the people whose work I've created thus far. And, you know, it's still their mind in a way it's partially technically their intellectual property, but it's, it's a very small [00:48:00] part of the intellect. It is, it is literally like You know, general idea mixed with your personal grasp on your native language, going into this database of all potential imagery and yeah, you're, you're getting, it's almost like, I don't know, it's sad because I really, when you remove all the complicated elements of it, it sort of is just like a per an idea person.

employing a chorus of artists to, you know, create an amalgam of this perfect idea for this person. So it's, it's more like a producer role is how I see people who are using AI. But unfortunately, I think a lot of professional photographers [00:49:00] have to start incorporating it and, and learning how to use it because.

It may or may not replace their jobs. But I, but I also know some professional photographers who are just dead set against it and refuse. So we'll see.

Matthew Holliday: There's going to be pictures taken with a human are going to become kind of their own. I guess the question is can you tell them apart from the AI generated imagery? I agree. I

Cat Ross: Oh, I I think it's going to have, I think it's going to have some cachet for certain collectors. There's going to be collectors who are like, no AI art in my collection.

I absolutely agree with that. I, I think yeah, I do think there's going to be some people out there who are going to be purists and that, that does serve to possibly drive up a niche photography market drive up that market itself, which would be cool, but it's so hard to say. Yeah, I, I don't know.

It's, [00:50:00] it's weird because I remember. I think it was the New York Times had like this online quiz of can you tell the difference between AI and a real person and I scored pretty well, but it is it is. It's a little terrifying. Yeah,

Matthew Holliday: Are there any ways that you as a model can protect yourself from being incorporated without your permission into these models? Because as I understand, generally speaking, they're trained off of items they just scrape off the internet.

Cat Ross: right. You know, there, there are a few ways you can try. I know that there was an app released called Nightshade that you're supposed to be able to upload images to, and it will, Put some kind of code into the image that will mess with the AI learning. But apparently the reviews on that aren't so great.

What I would recommend to models who want to protect themselves against AI usage is to find [00:51:00] on the internet or, you know, ask a friend who's in law school, whatever you need to do, find your own release. I think unfortunately that. In a few, you know, going forward, photographers and models are going to have to start kind of trading releases.

Because you, you do want to protect yourself as a model. If that's not something you want to be involved in and. They, they have, you know, you guys have the right to do that under most releases. Most standard releases. And I think that that that that's a choice and it's something that can be talked about.

You can ask right off the bat, like, are you planning on using this for AI if the answer is no, and it is used for AI down the line. If you have a contract that someone has signed saying, I'm not going to use your image for this and then they do, you know. That's trouble for them, so. [00:52:00] Yeah, I would, I would either bring your own release or ask that it be put into the photographer's release that it will not be used for AI.

Matthew Holliday: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And that's one of the, one of the unfortunate parts of that is all the people that signed releases

Cat Ross: Yeah.

Matthew Holliday: past that didn't even know that AI was a thing.

Cat Ross: Right. Yeah, that, that kind of ties into, you know, you don't always know what you're agreeing to at certain points in life.

Matthew Holliday: All right. So have you, have you worked with any artists that use AI or are you aware of any content that's been based off of you that was AI generated? Yeah. Mm

Cat Ross: I don't, I'm not positive. I know that someone I have worked with is using AI and their art. They, they are someone that you know, I, I can't fault them. I don't, they're a very professional person and the AI they're doing is It's pretty cool. You know, I [00:53:00] wish it wasn't AI. I wish my image weren't in the database, but it is what it is.

And it could be way worse. I'll put it that way. So you know, that person, one person that I'm thinking of in particular, you know, I have seen pretty much the full scope of their portfolio and I'm not really worried with them personally, but it is a question of like, hmm. I wonder where, you know, aspects of my face will end up in other people's art down the line.

Matthew Holliday: Yeah. Interesting. If you walk around and find yourself on an advertisement someday, like I never posed for that. Why is my face there?

Cat Ross: yeah. Oh, God, that's a freaky. Yeah, it's a freaky concept, but

Matthew Holliday: Yeah. Well, we can combine the, we can combine the two things we can do facial recognition. The advertisement recognizes you as you walk by and then it pulls photos of the internet from you and then, you know, puts the glasses that they're trying to sell you on the [00:54:00] advertisement. So you can see what you would look like with glasses or wearing their clothes or

Cat Ross: there you go.

Matthew Holliday: yeah, it's a horrifying future.

Yeah. Yeah.

Cat Ross: Glad we agree on that.

Matthew Holliday: All right, we've bounced around a little bit. So I want to ask about one more thing. We've only got a little bit of time left and honestly, this is not enough time to give this discussion the weight that it's worth, but I'm curious. Back in January although the recording for people listening, the recording with Taye Levy is coming out on May 1st, so last month, but it was recorded back in January.

She brought up the male versus female gaze. I'd heard of it before, but I hadn't really considered it. I've been thinking about it a lot since then, but I'm still struggling to put together some real, some real solid thoughts on it. Although it's definitely made me question some of my photography.

You, you posted something, oh gosh, 24 weeks ago, so we're really diving into the archives on this one, [00:55:00] but talking about the the, the experience of shooting a nude woman and versus artistic images. And then you specifically commented about thinking twice before you as a model, start running your own workshop.

Cat Ross: Yeah,

Matthew Holliday: So do you want to, do you want to talk a little bit about how women may be getting pulled into the male gaze?

Cat Ross: Yeah.

Matthew Holliday: mean, talk about anything you want to about this, I'm

Cat Ross: Yeah, I know. I, I think talking about, well, I mean, just to establish like the male gaze, I guess is you know, it's, it's an identified kind of art term phenomenon. I, I forget who termed who coined the term, but it's, it's basically identifying that when you see women in works of art, anywhere from movies to pictures to paintings You're seeing women through this sort of cultured, socialized [00:56:00] lens of being a guy who is, you know, inspired by women, whether that's sexually or intellectually or whatever, and, you know, you're, you're just seeing that woman as an object of desire or sexuality or an object, point blank.

And I think that's, that's. That's the four dummies version of the male gaze, I think. But yeah women getting pulled into the male gaze is something that I think about a lot. I think about myself and the, the kind of phases I've had with modeling where at one point I was comfortable with one thing because I was hanging out with this one photographer a lot and started seeing the work through his eyes or his aesthetic kind of.

And I think, With seeing women really take their own careers by the [00:57:00] reins has been awesome. When I first started modeling, Models were not this confident and aggressive about, you know, I deserve to be treated professionally. I deserve my rates. I deserve to be treated like a person. So that's super cool.

And seeing women be like, oh, I can set up a workshop and I can make money this way. I don't just have to be a face or a body. And that's awesome. What I fear, though, getting mixed into that is that, you know, we've, we've been around a multitude of these men and this aesthetic and some of these guys have been wonderful affirming influences in our lives and have introduced us to art that has changed our lives and some of these guys have kind of done the complete opposite and have made us You know, question our self worth in moments have [00:58:00] made us alter our, you know, not made us alter our bodies, but in inspired so much.

Doubt and self criticism that we've, we've changed our bodies and our faces for it. And, you know, maybe there's genres that you sort of get a little bit coerced into because there is a community and an energy around it. And when you're trying to make a name for yourself, a living for yourself, As not just a model, but also like an active force in all of this, you're kind of taking cues from what you've seen before.

And if you've only seen it before from the latter group of guys who, you know, is not so interested in the art and people's safety and people's humanity, I think you're on the risk of ending up just. You know, becoming that, just, you're [00:59:00] a woman, and that's really the only difference. And unfortunately, I feel like I've, I've seen a little bit, a little bit of that.

And I think, I think I was kind of, unfortunately, un, partially unknowingly on that trajectory. And something happened about a year and a half ago, where I learned some really upsetting information, and I kind of, You know, immediately pumped the brakes and I was like, whoa, I need to, I need to take stock of what I'm doing and what kind of people I'm talking to and what kind of imagery I'm putting out there.

What kind of fans I'm attracting, you know, all of that. Yeah, so that's, That's the, the thing I worry about, is that, not, and let me be clear, like, the male gaze is not, it's not a condemnation, necessarily Our entire history of [01:00:00] classical art is male gaze, really or almost all of it. And so there's clearly some incredible works of art in there.

But I think when the male gaze is relegated to, you know, post a new picture every day, post a new video every day, get new followers every day, it just becomes, you're like, you're like a McDonald's Happy Meal in a bathing suit, is how it starts to feel. And yeah, I've definitely seen some people take on some practices that I, I kind of raise an eyebrow at.

And I'm like, are, are you, are you a boss babe? Or are you just a GWC in a bikini? Like, you know,

Matthew Holliday: Yeah. I mean, I imagine, I have to imagine that most of what sells probably 90 plus percent of what sells. Is probably [01:01:00] male gaze, and might almost have to be male gaze, because horny dudes are, unfortunately, like, the vast majority of supports.

Cat Ross: Yeah, and again, that's not that's not a condemnation. Everybody gets 40. 

Matthew Holliday: But, but, no, but that, but the, but, I can see where if you're trying to make a living as somebody off of your photography or off of your modeling, where in order to pay the bills, you've got to sell the male gaze,

Cat Ross: right.

Matthew Holliday: and then you just end up just like that's just all like you're talking about, like, that's just all that's just what's in your brain, because you've just run that you've just run that rut over and over again.

And now you're just, and then when you go to shoot for yourself or your it's time for your personal project.

Cat Ross: Hmm.

Matthew Holliday: That's all you've got.

Cat Ross: that's all you. Yeah, that's all you've got because it's all you've been seeing. It's all you've been producing. Yeah, it's a, it's sort of like a negative feedback loop after a while.

Matthew Holliday: you do you, do you [01:02:00] have many male photographers that push back against that? Or is it, I understand that by male gaze, that does not necessarily mean that, you know, only men do it. 

Cat Ross: Yeah. Oh, yeah. I know a lot of photographers to question themselves and who questioned their own work. I don't, I don't even know what he's going by right now. And I feel bad about that. But his, his name is Boris Merkin. He used to go by chaos studios. Right. Yeah. Now he's got a couple of different Instagram accounts.

I'll try to pull them up. But he, he is someone who I've been working with for such a long time and we have done so many different kinds of projects together. And he's always someone that's been very experimental but always very respectful and very chill. And you know, I think he knows that a lot of what he is shooting is, you know, Is a particular style and a particular way of doing [01:03:00] things, but you know, he's, he's always He always seemed to ask important questions, and I found that admirable I mean, there, there are people Corwin Prescott, who a lot of people probably know, has always been very, very vocal about, you know, protecting models and being human towards models and photographer model relationships, and just, yeah, just treating people with respect.

He says a lot of great stuff yeah. Brandon Vasquez I'm forgetting off the top of my head what people's Instagram accounts are and I feel terrible he's someone I've worked with, he, he portrays women in all kinds of, you know, powerful, weird, horrifying, sexy sorts of ways and he's very, he's very adamant about models being Safe and respected and another 1 that I absolutely have to mention.

It's just an in lane. [01:04:00] He is someone I've worked with. He is another one that I have worked with pretty much since the beginning and just I mean, he's a, I can't say enough good things, but he has always taken stock of what he's doing, and he continues to ask himself these questions, you know, he, he has feelings about what he's doing.

He should be shooting as he gets older. I know a lot of photographers ask themselves those questions and, Oh, it's I, I do like for all the complaint, I do. I am really lucky to know some really, really solid men in the industry.

Matthew Holliday: well, that's good to hear.

Cat Ross: Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I, I'm not even mentioning women, but you actually interviewed Katherine Whitten, and she, she is someone I've worked with, and she's just fantastic. She and Anastasia Mae are always creating the most beautiful [01:05:00] sets. So, yeah.

Matthew Holliday: All right. I think that we are just about out of time. So it's time to close this down in the feedback I got last year. I had someone suggest that I asked guests on the podcast to recommend photographers and models people should follow or work with. And you just suggested several. Do you have

any that you would like to add to that list?

Cat Ross: Yeah. Let's see. I'm probably going to get in trouble for forgetting people. But oh, I want to recommend Dakota Lee as both a photographer event planner and model. Um, her friend cat, whose full name I'm forgetting right now, but she's amazing too. There are a few people Dakota Lee her circle of people seems like a good circle.

I'm blanking, but there's just so many people whose work I am grateful for, grateful to be a part of, whose own moral compass in the industry has helped me, and yeah, I'm just, So grateful to those [01:06:00] people. And actually there's one person who's not a photographer, but he's an employer of models, but his name is Stephen Forster.

He's a classically trained painter and just another very professional, very brilliant artist. Straightforward, business oriented, and incredible artist, so, yeah, that's another guy. Good one to trust.

Matthew Holliday: All right. What's your favorite picture in your portfolio? And definition of portfolio for this Could be Instagram. My portfolio is so vague now.

Cat Ross: Oh gosh, it's, I think people are going to find it silly, and I think it's one that's just been totally glossed over. But there's one taken by Justin and Lane, I think. I want to say it's from 2022 or 2021. And I had just cut my hair and it's very like, cinematic and stark and [01:07:00] simple, but I'm just kind of gazing and gazing out and the light is catching my eye in a certain way.

Matthew Holliday: I'm sharing my screen real quick. Because I want to know if this is Because I was actually looking Alright, nevermind, I'm not going to share my screen. Oh, there we go. Is it this picture?

Cat Ross: It's not that one, but that

Matthew Holliday: I saw this was Yeah, I saw this was JN

Lane. 

Cat Ross: Yeah, he, his work, like, I'm, I'm just, obsessed with his work because it's, it's very different from a lot of what's out there right 

Matthew Holliday: Gotcha. Yeah. I was looking through your, I was looking through your Instagram and that was one of two that caught my eye.

Cat Ross: Yeah, he, he is someone who I, I want to beef up a lot because I know in a long time he's not super social media oriented and he, he deserves, he deserves, I don't know, to be seen a little bit more. Sorry about that.

yeah. 

Matthew Holliday: The other one that caught my eye was the, the hashtag trad wife by brand Mars.

Cat Ross: Yes, that's Brandon Vasquez. [01:08:00] Brand Mars. Yes, that's his Instagram. Yeah, his, a lot of his work is some of my favorite as well. Another, oh, another photographer is Paul Tirado is another great one to work with.

Matthew Holliday: All right. All right. Do you have any projects you'd like folks to be aware of? After June 1st.

Cat Ross: Well, I am coming out with a jewelry line that, that is scheduled to launch the end of May, early June. I'm actually hopefully going to be shooting some of those pieces soon. So that's going to come out and coming out with my Patreon by May. So keep out, keep on the lookout for that. Other than that, I don't really have anything else.

Anything big planned? I'm just kind of going with the flow.

Matthew Holliday: All right. Any social media you'd like people to follow you on?

Cat Ross: Yeah. Instagram at Cat Ross hates you. I am . I am Cat D Ross on Facebook. [01:09:00] I believe on Twitter. I am Cat Ross. I, I might be wrong about that, but. Well, 

Matthew Holliday: I see you use Twitter a lot.

Cat Ross: the, yeah, that one was one of the sites that got a little fraught with the impersonation, so I needed to put a pause on Twitter, but yeah, that's mostly where you can find me.

Matthew Holliday: Gotcha. I think I found the, I think I found the one. People who are listening to this, this is the best. Is this the one you're talking about? This one is.

Cat Ross: No, but it's another great

Matthew Holliday: there's, so just, so just Justin Lane just does all these portraits of you that are all really phenomenal, but none of them are the ones that you're

Cat Ross: None yet, yeah.

Matthew Holliday: Is this

Cat Ross: I 

Matthew Holliday: Justin Lane? No, not Justin Lane.

Cat Ross: oh, oh my god, yes also Christian photographer. 

Matthew Holliday: This one's really good. Oh, this one's Justin Lane too! 

Cat Ross: yeah, 

Matthew Holliday: alright, am I following him? I need to be following him.

Cat Ross: you should follow him. Yes, everyone go follow Justin Lee. Oh, and Courtney Armitage. They're, they're friends [01:10:00] actually. She's a great photographer.

Matthew Holliday: Gotcha. All right. All right. And with that, we're done. You can find us at the NSFW photography podcast. com on Twitter is at NSFW Instagram at the NSFW photography podcast. We have a mastodon instant at NSFW photography social that is dedicated to new and adult photography with a very light hand on the moderation, and finally, subscribe on your favorite podcast app.