NSFW-S2-04 - Tay La Vie Back Again

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Matthew Holliday: [00:00:00] Welcome to the not safe for work photography podcast, where we explore the art and business of erotic photography. We bring you in depth interviews with photographers and models who push the boundaries of sexual expression through their work. We'll delve into their creative processes, the challenges they face and the ways they're shaping the industry.

Whether you're a photographer or model looking to expand your portfolio or simply a fan of erotic art, this is the podcast for you. So join us as we journey into the sensual side of photography and discover the beauty, intimacy, and empowerment that comes with it. Today we're interviewing Tay la Vie.

Taylor is a model and photographer from New Hampshire who is now based in Phoenix. She's been modeling for over two years and is most passionate about creating art that reflects the beauty of the human form, nature, and a general departure from the ordinary. How are you doing today, Taylor?

Tay La Vie: I'm doing excellent. Thank you so much. How are you?

Matthew Holliday: I am reasonable. I had to go into work today [00:01:00] and to take the metro into DC. And that is always, it's, it's funny. I generally support. 

I know you've been on before Taylor, you were on back in January, 2021. I don't think that's when we released the episode, but that's when the meeting was as part of a group discussion with emo hippie chick and Anastasia may, I believe. But I don't think we had time to dive into your history as a model because it was a group.

I think we just did kind of a quick intro for everybody. So why did you become a model?

Tay La Vie: Yeah, so actually when we interviewed back in January I, I believe it was actually 20 of 2022 because I started in 2020 in, I think October of 2021 was when I very started. And it was because of my friend CC flight. Who she's a, a big model out based in LA. We actually were college roommates in West Virginia and met back up and I saw her art and I truly had never felt so [00:02:00] inspired.

And I was like, all right, this is something I'm, I'm going to dive head first into my first real photo shoot was nude in a group with 13 other people in nature. So.

Matthew Holliday: a, that is a heck of a way to get started.

Tay La Vie: Yeah,

Matthew Holliday: start with fashion.

Tay La Vie: Yeah. Nope. I just dove right in.

Matthew Holliday: Interesting. How did you get, did you, I assume you got connected through your friend then?

Tay La Vie: Yeah. Raphael of Joe Glue is a his whole thing is the connection between humans and nature. So he's all about different shape sizes, genders all getting together and just kind of you can feel the connection through the photo. And that's my favorite thing about this kind of art.

Matthew Holliday: Did you have any concerns about starting off your first shoot as a nude shoot, or is this kind of a historical thing for you?

Tay La Vie: No, honestly, I was always really self conscious about my nude body. I was very conservative and pretty much I met up [00:03:00] with my friend Cece and Her energy was just infectious. She randomly asked, you know, do you want to come along to this group shoot that we're doing? And I don't know why, but I was like, yeah, absolutely, why not?

And I think I felt safe because I felt safe with her, and I trusted her and she knew the photographer already, and I was like, you know, if you believe it's a safe environment, you've been doing this already for, you know, I, I fully trust you and I, it was the best thing I ever did.

Matthew Holliday: you, you said you were, used to be fairly conservative. Are you still fairly conservative, or is this, have you changed? Did this change you? Are you changing as part of this?

Tay La Vie: I would say that I have completely evolved to be a completely different human being in the past two years. I wouldn't say that I was super conservative, but I was raised Catholic. I didn't like smoke weed or get into drinking until I was, you know, 18 years old. I didn't lose my [00:04:00] virginity until I was 20 years old.

So I definitely was a little delayed in all that stuff. But I think that might be why it was kind of such a a fearless leap into it for me was because I was maybe so starved of that freedom and release that I just kind of saw it and I was like, I need that. I'm going for that.

Matthew Holliday: It is kind of a common trope, right? People that are, people that are clause kept closeted or restricted as teenagers tend to, but then you see that, you know, the wild people that stay wild too. So I don't know that.

Tay La Vie: there's a wide array for sure. But yeah, I know my friend Cece was kind of the same way. We never. Really got into too much trouble and I don't think we're getting into trouble. We're just kind of, you know, maybe a little bit but Mostly just expressing ourselves and not really caring. That was the thing I had to get over was the judgment of the people that I loved for sure, but[00:05:00] 

Matthew Holliday: does your family know you do this and

Tay La Vie: yes yeah my family my Extended family. I'm I don't know maybe through word of mouth probably i've never talked to them about it But like my mom and my brother and

Matthew Holliday: you don't sit down at the Thanksgiving table and, you know, I just guess what I just put up on my

Tay La Vie: have a great story. I have a great story about that, actually. I, at Christmas time, we were playing this game, and it was basically like, you pull a card, and it says something like point at the person who dresses the most extra, or point at the person that's a know it all, and, you know, whoever gets the most points, they get the card, and at the end, if you have the most cards, you lose.

So, one of the questions that my friend got I'm sorry, my friend, my stepdad got, because it was just me, it was me, my brother, my mom, and my brother's girlfriend. We were all sitting there and they all get to see what the card is. But I don't. So they're all pointing at me and they're all looking at it and I'm like, what is it?

And they turn it over and it's, who has the most nudes on their [00:06:00] phone?

Matthew Holliday: Oh boy.

Tay La Vie: Yeah, my whole family. Yeah, my whole family. They're like, oh, we know. Oh yeah, we, we're aware.

Matthew Holliday: I would never want to play this with my daughter.

Tay La Vie: Truly.

Matthew Holliday: Oh boy. All right. Let's talk. Let's go back to talking about modeling. What's your favorite type of modeling to do? I don't know. I was, I was expecting, again, this was, this question was concocted kind of expecting that she went through, you know, fashion modeling and then lingerie modeling, but.

Tay La Vie: That is generally how, how normal people do it. Yes. I, I'm not, I guess I'm not normal. I definitely, and then, you know, once I jumped into nude modeling, which you asked, what's my favorite truly is nude in nature is my favorite thing, but also, you know, just, I want you to look at a photo and see a nude body in a way that you've never, Thought of a new body or seen one before, like it makes you think about the human form in a different way.

That's my goal in everything that I put out but I [00:07:00] definitely, I even do that with my fashion and my boudoir. Like, that's just how I like to express myself as a model. But yeah, I worked my, I cycled through all of it and I went through, I would say, a good year of kind of my little baby deer like phase not really knowing exactly what I wanted to do, but kind of like, sort of like pulling on some strings that I wanted to do and Yeah, once I, once I made the leap and moved out here to Phoenix, it just completely changed, changed everything.

Like my whole life in the past two years is completely turned around.

Matthew Holliday: Why? Well, what was it about Phoenix? Was it, was it a chance to reinvent yourself? Was it a different friend group?

Tay La Vie: yeah, well, so Phoenix, first of all, is closer to a lot of the areas that I wanted to work like LA. I never want to live in LA, but I love the city.

Matthew Holliday: I, yeah, I go there for work sometimes and it's really unpleasant.

Tay La Vie: For me, it's great to visit because I have a lot of people that I love out there that I get along with [00:08:00] and the art that I create out there is really amazing for a lot of creative people. But yeah, the city itself is. Not my favorite. I hate the traffic. I could never do it. Love to visit. Could never live there.

But yeah, I chose to be closer to the more, also where more jobs are for modeling out here, but I am also a lizard lady. So I love the heat. And I, I also love that I can go out and do shoots pretty much most of the year. So yeah, I, I mean, when it was 120 degrees out here, I was going on the super popular trails because I knew no one was going to be out there and I wasn't going far, but I was like, no one's going to be here so I can get naked and just bring a giant pack of water with me go like a quarter mile and just Go for it.

Matthew Holliday: Yeah. I think I saw one of your videos that you posted about like 115 degree heat.

Tay La Vie: Yes. Yeah. Like I said, lizard lady grew up in New Hampshire makes zero sense at all, but [00:09:00] I don't know. It's and yeah, Phoenix in particular. It's a very spread out city. Like it's a big metropolitan city. You know, it's very well known, but it's not. On top of each other, like Boston or New York or L. A, where you feel like you kind of can't breathe.

Phoenix is so spread out that it's I mean, it takes you a while to drive everywhere, but at least it's just a straight shot. And there's really traffic. And I, I just love it here. Did I mention that?

Matthew Holliday: Yeah. I've been to I spent some time on the front range and I love it and Southern Utah for six weeks for school. I'm a huge fan of the desert. So

Tay La Vie: Yes. Amazing. The photos that you get are so beautiful. The scenery.

Matthew Holliday: That is something I haven't shot there. I go occasionally to Las Vegas for business conferences and every time I say I'm going to try and shoot and then every time I just being so busy. Work stuff that I don't get around to it. Also it's a little, it feels a little weird to reach out to models and be like, Hey, I'm going to be in your town for like a week.

Do you have any [00:10:00] time? I don't have a studio or anything. Cause I'm visiting.

Tay La Vie: my gosh, I have photographers do that all the time. You totally should.

Matthew Holliday: All right. It feels weird to me. So I guess I'm just not,

Tay La Vie: Bring a, bring an escort, bring a friend and come out to the desert and we'll do some, we'll do some shots.

Matthew Holliday: Yeah. Do you ever shoot with Ziva Faye?

Tay La Vie: No, I don't think I have.

Matthew Holliday: She's down there somewhere. She does a lot of shooting in the desert. She's a huge fan of the desert.

Tay La Vie: I'm actually, I'm hosting a big group shoot on March 2nd where there's going to be almost 20 of us. I think there's 918 that are showing up. And it's all female photographers, female models, it's, or sorry, I should say fem. It's fem models fem photographers. So far we only have cis women, but all are welcome. And that's, I'm, I'm very excited about. So yeah, Phoenix is just a great area for connections and all that. Kind of stuff rather than New Hampshire. 

Matthew Holliday: What type of work are you offered most often?

Tay La Vie: It's pretty much, I would say my [00:11:00] specialty, what I've kind of gotten best at is art nudes. So that's generally what I'm hired to do. Because it's also, I mean, I don't really generally require a lot of direction, but especially with art nudes, I, I barely require direction. I kind of just move. And they snap.

So that's definitely my main one, but I also have a lot of photographers that like to come with me with some crazy concepts that they just, you know, I love working through things with photographers who like, they'll bring me a concept and together we make it something that's like completely Different but, you know, still based on the same thing, but different than, you know, the inspiration it came from.

Matthew Holliday: What do you prefer when working with a photographer? Do you prefer they give you a lot? Like come to you with a very specific, I want this exact photo or a very specific direction? Or would you prefer that they kind of come in like you were talking about with I would like to do art nudes, you know, in the Red [00:12:00] Rock Canyons and then kind of let you

Tay La Vie: I think my favorite, I mean, it depends. So if there's a specific vision that they are clearly looking for, other than, you know, just shooting nude in nature. I definitely prefer direction because I don't know what your vision is that you're looking for if we haven't really in depth discussed it yet.

So I want to make sure that I'm getting exactly what you want. So if you know a couple of times I have had photographers who have this grand concept but then give me they're completely silent and I'm like, what do I? Am I doing it right? Am I capturing what you're looking for? So yeah, I definitely like just send me out in the desert and I can do just some crazy poses on rocks for you.

It's my favorite thing.

Matthew Holliday: You said you take photos as well. What's your favorite type of photography when you're the one on the other side of the camera,

Tay La Vie: My favorite medium is film. I like to shoot, especially with expired film. It's more experimental comes out a little you [00:13:00] fail a lot, but you also get Some of my favorite shots have been on expired film. And Art Nude is the same thing that I, I really like to to shoot. I have a lot of friends who also take photos and we kind of will get together and take pictures of each other.

And my thing is I really like to capture people as they are in their rawest form. And it, I like to feel a connection to the art that I'm making. So if, if I'm not feeling it in that moment, then I don't feel confident about what I've made, I guess is what I, yeah.

Matthew Holliday: you mentioned the film thing. I've actually started experimenting a bit within stacks myself. Is this what type of film are you shooting?

Tay La Vie: So my favorite camera is my Nikon Fe, which is from 1976. I got a lot, a lot of 10 cameras for about 200 from an estate sale. And a lot [00:14:00] of them were, I have, like I said, my favorite is my Nikon FE. I have an Argus, which is from the 1930s. And they were all fully functional.

You know, there was a Minolta and a Pentax and Yeah, the Pentax is another favorite. But I also have a Holga, which is a 120 film, and I have my Polaroid, which I really like to experiment with, and I have an Instax as well. I, I'm addicted to cameras. It's kind of bad.

Matthew Holliday: Looking at the Nikon FE it's like, it's funny. The, I currently shoot micro four thirds and the Olympus OM5 that I have is very similar. It's like kind of that, that almost range finder.

Tay La Vie: Yep. Yeah,

Matthew Holliday: I really like it.

Tay La Vie: they're all very similar from that period. And

Matthew Holliday: yeah. That's what I learned to shoot on. I used to shoot my dad's when I was a teenager. 

Tay La Vie: They're so cool. I love them. And it's

Matthew Holliday: that, just that feel just like that, that, that, that thumb thing. Ah, love

Tay La Vie: in the weight of it. Like, yeah, [00:15:00] I have an RP as well. So I do shoot digital too. But yeah, definitely. I, I like how film challenges our we've kind of been conditioned to want instant gratification for everything in our lives this age. And so. Film kind of forces me to pause and wait and I like that it's like You know, it forces me to stop and not get everything immediately.

Matthew Holliday: Yeah. Yeah. Especially with, especially with the digital cameras where you can just like crank off a thousand shots in a two hour shoot. And if you crank off a thousand shots, like you're guaranteed to get four or five good ones.

Tay La Vie: Of course. Yeah. Yeah I shoot with yeah, I shoot with a photographer who he only he shoots a large format expired Film I can't remember what they're called But they're the ones that you put the blanket over your head and you the giant. Yeah, I forget what they're called But he, he uses those and I'll [00:16:00] do a shoot with him where I have to hold a pose for 30 seconds.

Or, you know, we're doing a long exposure where I hold the pose on one side for 15 seconds and then turn and do another pose for another 15 seconds to create kind of a double exposure. But it's that kind of experimental photography that I'm, I'm really into. And I, I've been studying Ansel Adams quite a bit lately.

He

Matthew Holliday: but yeah, that's interesting. I have a book of his stuff and reading about how he had, cause he had to do all his own developing and he would talk about like, you know, I use this film and I use this specific developer solution and I overexposed by 12 and like he, he would go out and he would only have 12 film backs.

For like the whole day of shooting

Tay La Vie: Yeah, and he would, he basically invented Photoshop because he would take things and, you know, bring a, bring a shadow to, to block something out of a picture and then re scan it or re, I, I watched a documentary. He is so, he's so cool. Film is [00:17:00] cool.

Matthew Holliday: it. You basically had to be almost a chemist to shoot back then. And it was expensive. 

Tay La Vie: I mean, it's expensive as heck now, I can tell you that. If you want a, like a new role of Portra, which is the most Kodak portraits, pretty much one of the most popular films out there and one roll of 400 ISO is 20 and that's 36 exposures. So,

Matthew Holliday: and then you have to develop

Tay La Vie: it developed. Yeah, exactly. So that's another reason I shoot with expired film is I can get a roll of film for two bucks.

I have two rolls, one that's from 1947 and another it's from 1957 and

Matthew Holliday: That's wild.

Tay La Vie: my friend that shoots. Fully large format and expired said, yeah, you can shoot with that. No problem. Just do this, this, this, and this, and then send it to me and I'll develop it for you. I was like,

Matthew Holliday: That's wild. And like I said, I've been shooting with instax and that's about a buck a shot. But I think what I do wish that I could get it larger because the instax, ones are only like that big, the instax wide, but they're still so [00:18:00] small. I wish I could,

Tay La Vie: Yeah. I have a, I have one of the big, the, the original, not original Polaroids, but it's one of the newer ones where you can Bluetooth connect to your phone. So you can actually adjust the settings manually. Like your ISO and your exposure and all that stuff. Those are cool.

Matthew Holliday: yeah, a lot of the, a lot of the modern instax ones don't have very many settings at all.

Tay La Vie: Unfortunately.

Matthew Holliday: So I am seeing a lot of public nudity in your stream. You mentioned before that you kind of got started and frankly, a group nude shoot, and you've already kind of talked about how much you enjoy going to Phoenix because you could go wandering around in nature wearing your nature.

As a naturist, so I guess this question is already answered. That sounds like that's something you enjoy quite a bit,

Tay La Vie: Yes, definitely. I mean, like I said, it's something that I've just been, my eyes have been open to how amazing it feels.

Matthew Holliday: any risky run ins with the law or, you know,

unpleasant [00:19:00] experiences while wandering around, dude.

Tay La Vie: so actually not in 2022 the fall of 2022, I was shooting in Nashua, New Hampshire at sunrise and we were, it was, There was no one out. It was like Saturday or something at, you know, 5 a. m. There was no one there. And we were just kind of in me and another model were in trench coats and just kind of pulling them off for some shots in the city.

And We actually didn't get caught on like the main street, but we went to this, there was like a parking lot that was just kind of full of tires for some reason, just kind of being stored there, something. So we just did some artistic shots in those and we were fully nude and a biker went by and he didn't say anything.

So we're like, oh, okay, well, you know, we'll be, we'll be fine. Then we finish up, put our little coats back on. We start walking, down the street and a cop car rolls up. And like, you know, does a little broop broop and rolls his window down. He's [00:20:00] like, Hey guys, you taking pictures and me and the photographer kind of did most of the talking and he was like, yeah, we're just, you know, personal, just having fun.

And another cop walks up from behind us from like a restaurant or something. And he's like, he's like, I heard this one on the radio. Like we had to come check it out. I was like, Oh my God.

Matthew Holliday: oh boy,

Tay La Vie: So yeah, they, they basically just laughed and were like, you know, don't, don't be naked anymore guys. You're like, fine.

Okay.

Matthew Holliday: I'm going to repeat. So with Ziva mentioned to me before, she has a lot of nude stuff in the national parks and national forests. And one of the things, one of the tricks she talks about is having a body, like a flesh colored bodysuit that you could, like, if somebody sees you at a distance, you can hurriedly put on and be like, Oh no, I'm just wearing this.

Like you must've been mistaken.

Tay La Vie: You're, you're clearly wrong. Yeah. I've had a lot of moments to there. When we went to Sedona last summer to do some shoots, I, [00:21:00] we were at sunset and there was this lovely elderly couple at the top of this. Little hill that we were gonna shoot on and they were watching the sunset and there was a it was a small group of us and I walked over.

I was the brave one. I walked over and I was like, excuse me, would you mind if we get naked and take pictures over in that direction? And the husband like kind of looked at the wife like a little horrified and the wife was like, of course, have a great time. Oh my gosh, don't let us get in your way. Let us know if we need to move.

Yeah, had to be like in their mid 70s maybe, you know, yeah mid to late 70s, super sweet.

Matthew Holliday: It's hilarious. So I think we've already answered this question as well. We're getting ahead of ourselves. I found the models tend to fall in one of two buckets concerning nudity. Group one is exhibitionists who really enjoy showing off and considering modeling kind of a win win you get to show off and you get paid [00:22:00] and people that are just completely apathetic about whether they're wearing clothes or not.

And they're just more of a fan of kind of modeling lifestyle. So I assume you fall into the first bucket. You are in this for the win win.

Tay La Vie: honestly, I would say it's a little bit of both because like there are some aspects of. Modeling that I will get nude and get paid for, but it's not necessarily. My favorite thing. But definitely when it comes to just something I feel like doing or it's within something that I want to artistically create or something that I just feel like I just want to go out in the desert and get naked right now.

It's not necessarily that I like want to go walk down the street and show everyone like, I'm not going to hop on a zoom call naked with you, but,

Matthew Holliday: Yeah,

Tay La Vie: but I don't mind. I should say it's more that I like, I'm comfortable enough with myself that it's not a big deal. Like I'm not, I'm not [00:23:00] super. Yeah. It's somewhere in between those things, I guess.

Cause I'm not super crazy excited about it, but I'm also not like me, you know, whatever. Because I do like it for the freedom it gives me, but I'm also not like, I want everyone to look at me, you know, if that makes sense,

Matthew Holliday: that's interesting. Yeah. That's a, that actually sounds like that is not exhibitionism. Exhibitionism is more about the people watching and you're more about, I can do this thing and I like doing this thing. And I don't really care if anybody's there or not.

Tay La Vie: Exactly. Yeah. Like exhibitionism for my own soul.

Matthew Holliday: So on the other side of this, do you think that all photographers are voyeurs? Or is there kind of a similar dynamic for photographers where some don't really care about nudity or not, but they're just, this is one of the ways that they can get paid.

Tay La Vie: I think that the voyeur thing, unfortunately, is I wouldn't say a vast majority, but maybe like 60 percent I've found, or that have hired me at least. I mean, [00:24:00] there are good people. I think it just comes from that male gaze perspective, where it's content that appeals to a lot of men and that is It's understandable because it's how a lot of men feel.

There are a few photographers who I've met who definitely are more about they see the body as art. It's less about like the, the Sexuality that is evoked from the image and it's more about the, the, the artistic value of the human body. And I, yeah, I even have, you know, good friends who are photographers where I'm like, you know, you shoot with the male gaze, right?

Like, I'm just letting you know, they're like, yeah, absolutely. That's my, that's my, my genre. And I'm like, I know. Yeah. And And it does, it's appealing to, I would say the, the reason why it's a small majority of photographers is because it's more appealing to the vast majority of audiences who are looking at this content.

And that's totally understandable and okay, you know, like I'm [00:25:00] a sexual human being. I, I like feeling hot and sexy and I like doing those shoots and they do make me feel good. But there is quite a difference I've found between those photographers who are more. Concerned with I want to make art out of this.

I haven't really found a photographer who is like, I'm just getting paid for this. So, you know, whatever. I haven't met one, at least. Yeah, I'm sure they're out there. Most of them are, are either passionate about what they're doing. Or they are they basically just kind of have this I have a camera and I can look at ladies this way, or there's, there's somewhere in between that where it's like, this is, I know that this is something that I think looks good, that I can create in a way that will be well received by others.

That's not necessarily overly objectifying but it has that little twinge of sexuality to it. Yeah, I think there's a there's and there are those that that toe that line and that do both of [00:26:00] those things, which I think is an incredibly unique. Skill to have not that either of the the male gaze are not as unskilled.

It's just a completely different value. I think that it adds to the industry in the genre.

Matthew Holliday: So I'm actually going to jump to some of the questions for later, because where you went with that leads right into them.

Tay La Vie: Sorry, I'm rambled.

Matthew Holliday: no, it's fine. That's fine. So one item that we've touched on here kind of over and over again, is that it's difficult for a model to make a living working with only the ones that you talked about that see the human body as art and are less about the male gaze and are more about.

Art. So have you do you, do you kind of accept work from both types of photographers, both the serious art ones and the ones that are really focused on kind of, I guess, I would say more erotic than if they're more focused on the male gaze as opposed to the human body as art.

Tay La Vie: Yes, absolutely. And then I will accept jobs from both. I [00:27:00] do see the value in both. I think that erotic art can absolutely be art. I think that Just personally for me, it doesn't evoke the same feelings, but when I am in an erotic shoot it definitely is confidence boosting. I feel, you know, like powerful.

It's very empowering very like I'm in control of my own, what I'm doing with my, my body and all that. But yeah, I would say that it's, it is rarer that I have a someone who doesn't have that male gaze. And eroticism to hire me, I definitely have and I those are like always my favorite shoots to work on and I generally work end up working with those people TFP at some point along the line, just because I.

I love working with them so much. And I've gained a lot of friendships that way as well. Just kind of with similar artistic visions. It's really cool.

Matthew Holliday: So it sounds like the male gaze photographers are the [00:28:00] ones that pay the bills then.

Tay La Vie: Absolutely. 1000%. And that's okay. I love, I love, like I said, I have a lot of male photographer friends who absolutely we talk about all the time.

Matthew Holliday: How about guys with camera? Because I'm assuming that the, the ones that are more on the male gaze ones are still the more professional ish ones, more professional ones, even if they are still, you know, and then you've got the guys with camera, the ones that are, you

Tay La Vie: yeah, the ones that are guys with cameras don't generally have the underlying talent or even effort that they put into the art that they're making is the difference generally. 

Matthew Holliday: Know what, what happens when one of those guys reaches out to you?

Tay La Vie: when it's a guy with a camera. I'm It's, it's difficult because it's very easy to spot them right away. Now, so I pretty much will kind of let them know that I'm, you know, I'm going to bring two of my big guy friends [00:29:00] that are going to come with me and they're going to sit there the whole time. And that generally will either have them say, oh, nevermind, which is a big tip for.

For you, if you want to, because I always bring an escort anyways, but even if you don't have one solid yet, always say, I'm going to bring an escort because if they react like, oh, that's, well, like you shouldn't bring an escort. I've had that happen. And I'm like, okay, then I'm not going to shoot with you because that's very strange,

Matthew Holliday: Yeah, I I'm generally very supportive of that. I personally always accept an escort but I know there's some photographers that definitely don't and definitely they tend to be very outspoken about it too.

Tay La Vie: which is so very strange to me. I had a guy tell me that it was because he was self conscious. Around men and that's why, and then I later found out that he was touching models and appropriately. I'm like, okay, buddy. Yeah. You were self

Matthew Holliday: be self conscious.

Tay La Vie: Yeah. So yeah, definitely guys with camera are much easier to spot.

And like I said, they don't [00:30:00] put as much work. into learning the, the skills of using a camera or or even any kind of effort into their editing or basically like, I have this camera, I'm going to take pictures of you while you're naked. And that's it. I've had many photographers like that where I don't even get the pictures.

Matthew Holliday: Yeah. Well, if he got paid, right.

Tay La Vie: Exactly. Yeah. I'm like, they're your photos. You know, you

Matthew Holliday: All right. So you've mentioned the male gaze a couple of times. This is not something we have explored on the podcast. So that sounds like we probably should. I've certainly heard it mentioned before.

So one of the things, one of the things that I've recently, recently, this is the first episode started doing is inviting guests. People who follow the podcast who want to join and want to ask questions and Ben has joined us tonight and had a question that I was thinking of something else related to the male gaze, but I like his, his question is, can the male gaze be trained away?

Tay La Vie: [00:31:00] I Absolutely think so. Yes, I think that if there is a willingness to Kind of have a dialogue about this to happen to one of my friends, actually, when we had a discussion and I was like, why do you like this picture this way? And he would explain it to me and he would say, you know, I like the way that her ribs look here or whatever.

And I would then compare it to maybe a photo I had taken or one of my friends had taken and say, do you see how they're kind of in a similar pose, but it's a completely different feeling. Whereas, you know, with the male gaze, it tends to be more voyeuristic, more like I'm looking at her, and she might, she's in this pose, but it's kind of her face is more sexually expressive, and you can have someone in the same pose in another photo.

With just different hand placements where it's more ethereal, where it's more gentle, where it's not necessarily [00:32:00] touching your body or yourself less looking like you're in ecstasy and more kind of looking like you're dreaming, daydreaming so I definitely think that if you pay attention to the things that That might be sexual about your photos and explore ways to change those small things to make it less about the sexuality of the photo and more about bringing attention to the uniqueness of the model that you're working with.

Matthew Holliday: I'm going to, I'm going to get some definitions because I was just thinking to myself, I'm not a hundred percent sure what the male gaze is. I mean, other than the fact that like, oh, it is a male and he is

Tay La Vie: And he's gazing.

Matthew Holliday: I definitely want to do some more research on this and have an episode on this in the future.

If you're listening to this and you're, I'd be, I think it'd be interesting to have a male and a female photographer and maybe a male and a female model, although probably not all on the same episode. But all right, definition. In feminist theory, the male gaze is the act of depicting women and the world in visual [00:33:00] arts and in literature from a masculine heterosexual perspective that presents and represents women as sexual objects for the pleasure of the heterosexual male viewer.

There is not actually, hold on. When I searched for female gaze, I didn't get a Wikipedia article. That's from the 

Tay La Vie: That's a new 

Matthew Holliday: here we go. So the female gaze from Wikipedia. This one does not start off with an easy definition like that.

Tay La Vie: so I, the thing about the female gaze is it's a much newer term and it's been more towards men. Like, like how we look at men. But I have seen a lot of I watched an in depth YouTube video basically about how women view other women versus how men view women. And it's very interesting how the people that we as women might find beautiful versus the people that men.

Might find beautiful. Just completely. It's fascinating. It's it's very interesting how how just [00:34:00] our brains look at things completely differently based on our biology. It's kind of nuts.

Matthew Holliday: yeah, the definition of female gaze is not as concise. It's much more complicated. And although I did find another article that's not Wikipedia it talks about the female Female gaze is a new concept and not so clearly defined. One way of looking at it is the female gaze embraces the spectator, character, and director of these works and sets out to represent women as people that are capable of the same things that men are. These aspects set the theory apart from the male gaze, which portrays women as objects and nothing more. See, I don't I mean, I guess I, so if I'm looking at photography, I've definitely seen pictures where I'm like, yes, the woman is an object, but I see a lot. I feel like I see a lot more photography where they aren't, but that's interesting. Yeah, I definitely, definitely want to dive into more of this at a future point.

Tay La Vie: it's really interesting to. Because you can also see I find that a lot of [00:35:00] female boudoir photographers, photographers, I wouldn't say not even close to 50 percent of them, but there are a few that I can see are trying to kind of mimic the male gaze because that's what they're used to seeing for boudoir photography a lot of the time, you know, commercial boudoir photography is Traditionally for like the wife to get for her man or, you know, whatever.

So I've, I've seen a lot of that where women kind of are trying to train themselves to the male gaze, but it's interesting because to me, when I see those photos, a lot of it, first of all, you can see the that peak of, you know, the, the more obscure female gaze, which in my opinion is more just kind of the opposite of the male gaze rather than sexualizing something, completely de sexualizing it.

But the whole point of boudoir is to be sexy anyway.

So, It is very interesting to see the female versus male takes on, on boudoir photography.

Matthew Holliday: I would definitely argue that if your boudoir photography is objectifying someone, you're probably failing at it.

Tay La Vie: [00:36:00] Oh yeah, no, I'm, I'm not saying necessarily objectifying, but it's all about the sexuality. It's all about being sexy,

Matthew Holliday: I'm thinking about like kind of my mental model is. Is that glamor photography by definition is from the male gaze kind of, I'm thinking like playboy and, and, and penthouse and that type of stuff. And boudoir should be much more on the empathy empathize.

Tay La Vie: Right. It's, it's like the, well, yeah, it's about sexual boudoirs. All about sexuality, but it's not necessarily, it's about the empowerment of 

Matthew Holliday: It's not overt, it's not overt. It's not, it's not sexuality where it's like,

Tay La Vie: Yeah, like, yeah, not like I'm grabbing my boobs and my butt, stuff

Matthew Holliday: well, you can be, you can be. But again, like that, like, again, when I'm thinking of. And I'm thinking of glamor stuff. Like I'm thinking of frequently like faceless women or women that are interchangeable. Like their heads could just be chopped off and replaced with any other woman because there's no focus on their face at all.

Tay La Vie: very Victoria's Secret. Yeah.

Matthew Holliday: Yeah. And the [00:37:00] lighting is, you know, classic three point lighting. Everything's extremely well lit because you want to be able to see everything.

Tay La Vie: I know of a specific company that, that, that's all that they do is, is those very, you know, quote, girl next door. But it's, Yeah, it's not as it doesn't feel as empowering as boudoir photography does, even though they're both sexual. I feel like like boudoir photography, photography is about owning your sexuality.

It's about feeling empowered within it rather than being an object that you're just kind of there and to be looked at, you know what I mean? Does that make sense?

Matthew Holliday: Yeah. You're on display.

Tay La Vie: Yes, exactly.

Matthew Holliday: Interesting. All right. Well, we will move on from that because I don't want to, like I said, I want to, I want to study some more and figure some more out of this. Cause I'm mostly just making random statements at this point. So we are, we have so many more questions and we're not going to have time to get to them. [00:38:00] Someone, someone told me as feedback, they were like, stop sticking so closely to the questions, don't let yourself get distracted. So we just let ourselves get distracted for a little bit. But I do want, there's a couple of these things I want to hit on for sure.

So boundaries and changing over time. We, we, we wanted to talk about like how things have changed for you in the past two years. What were your boundaries when you started? What are your boundaries now? And have they changed or did you come in with kind of a real solid idea of, of what you wanted to do?

Tay La Vie: I would say absolutely not. I had no idea. I kind of just jumped, jumped in, was like, I'm going to figure out how to swim once I get there. And so I didn't really have boundaries. I had no idea what I should or shouldn't be doing. I had no idea what red flags were. And unfortunately I had some bad experiences that taught me lessons in order to set those boundaries.

And I would say in the, in the two years I have absolutely. I know what's acceptable, what's not, you know, [00:39:00] never let a photographer touch you that you have, if they're going to touch you, you ask, they ask your permission first. There's a lot of, you know, red flags beforehand that I've learned how to catch up on.

And also the way that the photographer speaks to you is very important. There's a lot of times that photographers will say some pretty vulgar and unnecessary things during photo shoots that are, that can just be 

Matthew Holliday: Like what? 

Tay La Vie: like, Oh, your pussy looks so great. You know? Or like, Oh, like, I really love your titties right now.

Like, Really just like there's a way to phrase that, you know, like, like, I really like the way the light looks really great, the way it's hitting your chest right now, or like something like, you know, the way, and I'm like, this has, this has happened to me several times where the photographer just has no tact, zero tact in how they speak.

And yeah, like, I get that you have those thoughts, but let's let's keep those,

Matthew Holliday: It's like [00:40:00] that discussion about intrusive thoughts. You don't have to say everything that comes out of

Tay La Vie: Exactly, you don't need to say those out loud.

Matthew Holliday: My wife, my wife tells me that when we're watching a Hallmark movies,

Tay La Vie: thoughts inside.

Matthew Holliday: like, ah, he's not cute enough. And she's like, you don't have to comment on how attractive everybody

Tay La Vie: Write it in a journal, okay? Take a second. If you're, if you're in a photo shoot and you can't, you, you have to do it, just have a journal next to you. Like, hang on one second. I'm going to write this down. 

Matthew Holliday: So do you think, do you think those boundaries will change in the future? Or do you think you've got a pretty good handle on them?

Tay La Vie: I'm not going to say that, that, you know, they're not going to change because I originally wasn't, I mean, I wasn't going to do only fans. I wasn't going to Get involved in most of the stuff that I'm involved in now, so I'm sure that my boundaries will expand. But the thing that I'm glad about is when I have those boundaries, when I do expand them, it's a very, it's not in the moment at all.

I sit down, I have a very deep thought process on how I'm gonna go forward. You know, like when [00:41:00] I started to do sexual content on my OnlyFans, I had a big sit down with my friends and you know even my mom, I was like, I don't know. And so yes,

Matthew Holliday: discussion with my mom.

Tay La Vie: yeah, it's definitely we, we've evolved in our relationship very well. But yeah, no, I have solid boundaries and if I ever am to change or expand upon those boundaries, it will never be a whim.

Matthew Holliday: How would you go about doing that? Let's say I'm thinking if there was somebody out there that was modeling or there was a photographer. Okay, so let's ignore the photographer because the photographer should never be pushing the model's boundaries unless she explicitly asks him to. But if there's a model out there that's thinking about getting into something, like maybe they've done fashion before and they want to move into lingerie or something like that, how would you recommend they go about doing that?

Because frankly, though, I think the method doesn't Like what you're specifically moving from two doesn't matter. It's the method should all be kind of the same.

Tay La Vie: Absolutely. I think that the [00:42:00] best way to do it is you. Always discuss your boundaries beforehand. You always discuss exactly what you're going to be shooting beforehand because I found that and it's really funny because photographers still tried on me to this day. And it worked on me when I was a new model.

You go there for to get paid for a lingerie shooter, a fashion shoot, and then the photographer will, at, you know, close to the end of the shoot, be like, Oh, do you want to do a couple topless? Or do you want to do a couple nude?

And

Matthew Holliday: Who doesn't hold on.

Tay La Vie: like, especially when, when you're brand new and you're already in a lingerie set and you've never really done this before, you know, I, myself included, and I know a lot of models, you kind of, you're like, well, he's paying me like he's already paid me. And it, you know, it's just me and him in this room and like, I, I guess so.

And yeah, like I said, photographers to this day still try it on me and I. The most recent time it happened I think was back in August and [00:43:00] I literally looked at the man and I was like, no, no, thank you. I'm good. He was like, do you want to just pop out a couple nudes now? No, thanks. But yeah, I appreciate that.

We spoke about what we were shooting beforehand, and that's that.

Matthew Holliday: Yeah.

Tay La Vie: Yeah, that's the best advice I could give to, to brand new models is always stick to the plan of what your shoot was going to do. What you're, what the shoot was supposed to do, what you're, what you guys were both planning on doing. There should be no Deviation from that plan.

Matthew Holliday: All right. Well, the last couple of minutes you had, you had mentioned before when we talked before you had some horror stories about photographers behaving badly. You had made some comments about photographers requesting nudes being sunk, sent drunk DMs after a shoot and sexually explicit messages of the last two years have you been getting more of those less of those has the content [00:44:00] changed?

Tay La Vie: It's very fascinating. I would say that the the boundaries that I have have. I haven't even had to express them but I think because I have been around for longer, they know not to. Do that, which I'm very grateful for but at shoots, I, like I said, I still have photographers who will say very disgusting things.

I, I had a shoot, you know, where I showed up and the guy literally didn't even look at me or didn't even look at his camera the whole time. He, he just stood there with his head. Like this just staring with his head away from his camera just staring at me while he was shooting. And I was like, how do you even know you have me in frame, sir?

So that was one. I also this guy, I actually had His profile taken down and we reported him because he he touched me. He, I was there for a foot feather shoot and he started touch my feet. [00:45:00] And I was like, I'm not comfortable with that. Please don't do that. And then he put his face to my feet and wouldn't stop.

And I, yeah, it, the liberties that a lot of photographers think they can take because simply because they're paying you and giving you money is. It's unbelievable. Yeah, most photographers that are amazing that have paid have been polite, have bee it's unfortunate that tho Those people who are way out of line kind of are the ones that outshine the rest, because they're the ones that are most remembered by the models because of the trauma that they cause.

So, yeah, it's like I said I had most of the photographers I work with are, you know, become my friends I'm, I love them. But you got to weed out the, the not great ones, unfortunately.

Matthew Holliday: It's actually makes me wonder if there's a business model here for escorts that [00:46:00] are

Tay La Vie: I know, right?

Matthew Holliday: it sounds like there's a kind of specific fetish that a lot of guys are coming for here.

Tay La Vie: Yeah, seriously. Yep.

Matthew Holliday: All right. Well, I think we are about out of time. So I got a couple of questions for closing. Some of the feedback that I got last year, I had somebody suggest that I asked. Guests on the podcast to recommend either photographers or models that people should follow and, or work with do you have a model and, or a photographer that you really enjoyed working with and you think people should follow

Tay La Vie: Yes. So I would say that CC flight, who was the person who got me into modeling in the first place is an amazing model. She also does dabble in photography a little bit, but her, her main gig is modeling. And then.

Matthew Holliday: what's her Instagram handle

Tay La Vie: Wait, hang on. Give me a second.

Matthew Holliday: C C C C C dot flight.

Tay La Vie: Yes, cc dot flight. Yes, that Oh, I'm already following her. All right.

She does photography [00:47:00] and modeling super talented model. And then I would say The first photographer that I did that group shoot with he's a little harder to his name is Raphael Avgioglu. So it's R A F A E L dot A V C I O G L U. His art is absolutely fantastic.

Very thought provoking. He shoots all over the world and Paris and Spain and He's, he's just a very cool dude and I love his art a lot and he's very sweet.

Matthew Holliday: This is a very interestingly spelled last name. I would not have

Tay La Vie: Yes, absolutely. It took me forever to understand how to pronounce it. So,

Matthew Holliday: Wow. That's really interesting. All right. Yeah. I really like his. Oh my gosh. I love this one on his Instagram of the two people in the bathtub. And it's such a, such a

Tay La Vie: that's him and that's him and his wife. Actually those are self, self shots.

Matthew Holliday: [00:48:00] I love that vintage film look so much. I've been looking at various filters to try and capture that. Cause I grew up, I was born in 1980. So like I grew up in the late eighties and the nineties, all the, those instant, those little cameras, those little disposable cameras, like all of my memories

Tay La Vie: The pictures that, yeah, the pictures that you use were all film pictures. Yeah.

Matthew Holliday: Awesome. All right. What's your favorite picture in your portfolio or Instagram or whatever you're considering to be your portfolio.

Tay La Vie: I would say so on my Instagram currently some of my favorite shots Are with my friend, Scott. Scott Knuckler, I would say right now. My favorite one is if you can say it's this one.

Matthew Holliday: Oh, yeah, it doesn't

Tay La Vie: It's a very Yeah. So I'm kind of bending over backwards on like this little mirror ball. And he took it on a large format expired film.

Matthew Holliday: For anybody that is trying to follow along. This was posted four weeks ago. So middle of December. That's [00:49:00] kind of interesting Where did he get that mirror ball? That'd be a cool prop

Tay La Vie: so he actually one of his friends was a property manager and there was a grocery store that closed and they had, you know, those corner things that

Matthew Holliday: for

Tay La Vie: mirror where it's one coming around the corner. He got two

of those zip tied them together.

Matthew Holliday: Interesting. All right All right, Cheshire Scott. All right.

Tay La Vie: Yes. He's awesome too. He's a really good person to follow.

Matthew Holliday: I think I think I even made a comment on the one you posted 19 weeks ago. I think you've got it. The, the, the one that had the super nineties vibe or the eighties

Tay La Vie: Oh, yes. Yes. That's also, that's also expired film with photographer

Matthew Holliday: the vibe of that is so perfect. Like I just. So nostalgic and so like hanging out with people in the 80s and it's it's late and you guys just got back from a club and

Tay La Vie: Yes. That's why I love expired film so much is that it can go so wrong, but it [00:50:00] can, oh my gosh, it can bring you the coolest results.

Matthew Holliday: Those are beautiful. I love those so much and that was analog Fredericks was the photographer and you're the model, of

Tay La Vie: Analog setup.

Matthew Holliday: I have to follow him, too That's so cool.

Tay La Vie: Yeah.

Matthew Holliday: So you said that's expired film. Maybe I should get into the expired film thing

Tay La Vie: There's a lot of cool stuff you can do with it. And you don't feel as bad when you don't get the shot because it was. 

Matthew Holliday: All right. All right. Well, let's finish this out then. Do you have any projects that you'd like folks to be aware of? Any travel coming up? Anything like that?

Tay La Vie: I actually have a trip planned out to L. A. It's going to be, I'm not totally sure on the dates yet, but it's going to be the end of the month. I'm planning on staying for two weeks and just banging out a bunch of photo shoots and you know, whether it's as photographer or model, like I said, I love to visit LA.

So

Matthew Holliday: Wouldn't want to live there though. 

Tay La Vie: I'll announce that on my stories if I, [00:51:00] when I, the exact dates when I'm traveling. So,

Matthew Holliday: this is one of the things that drives me nuts about social media. I, if you're not checking up on it, like every day you miss out on stuff like that. That drives me nuts.

Tay La Vie: I do try to pin it on my profile so that if I have a little travel notice you can get, but you have to check my profile, so. I'll,

Matthew Holliday: media. I hate it. I

Tay La Vie: I'll try to do it ahead of time. A long, long while ahead of time, so you know.

Matthew Holliday: That makes sense. All right. Well where can everyone find you online after they listen to this and decide that they love you so much that they need to go follow you.

Tay La Vie: You can find me on Instagram. It is Tay underscore law, underscore V underscore.

Um, like say lovey. Taylor V. I love it.

Thank you. And then on Twitter it is the same at school. It's Tay underscore law, underscore. V and then just 13 at the end. And those are my two main social medias that I use. So you can DM me there or just [00:52:00] check out my, my work.

Oh, I also have a photography page that I forgot to plug. Tay behind the lens underscore is my photography page. So if you'd like to follow that as well, I would, I would appreciate it.

Matthew Holliday: All right. Awesome. And with that, we are done. You can find us at the NSFW photography podcast. com. On Twitter is at NSFW photography, Instagram at the NSFW photography podcast. And we have a mastodon instance at NSFW photography dot social. It is dedicated to nude and adult photography has a very light hand on moderation. And finally subscribe and your favorite podcast app [00:53:00]