NSFW Pod 033 - Creativity with Kazzy!

NSFW33_Kazzy 

[00:00:00] Matthew Holliday: So quick note, before we jump into the podcast proper, I did something a little different this time, as I mentioned before, and I'm sure I will mention later the podcast started as a replacement activity during COVID. I wanted to get back into photography, but with COVID occurring, I didn't want to shoot in person. 

So I started the podcast. Instead, the budgeted money that would've gone to pain models to shoot now instead goes towards pain models for the podcast. I'm a big believer that people should be paid for their time and you can be paid in a variety of ways, whether that's in stellar images, exposure, that actually means something and fun or in dollars for people where this is their livelihood. 

That usually means dollars. Now that people are gathering again and most people are vaccinated. My budget is not high enough to both shoot and record and pay for both in an ideal world. The podcast will be so influential that the exposure would be worth time. Or would pay for itself. But at this point in time, the viewership is still fairly limited. 

It's a niche audience and I've done very little advertising. I've debated trying to widen the audience and bring in the model fan demographic, but I'm worried about losing the core audience of photographers and models. If I tip a little too deeply there, and a lot of photographers and models don't want to stretch their feet too far over that line. 

We've discussed the art needs slash erotic line before, and there is a real cost to cross it. Even if the monetary rewards may be higher. So the short term answer is the podcast will be moving to a monthly format where previously I was able to afford to interview two models for an hour, a piece I am now going to try and find one model per month for a three hour shoot and interview. 

Of course, this is going to limit me to local models to the DMV area and traveling models for a period. I am simultaneously going to be looking at methods of broadening the reach of the podcast and how to monetize it. As I mentioned before, no doubt, again, this is not a podcast. That's going to make anyone rich, but I would like for it to be revenue neutral and would like to be able to pay all the guests who come on, what they ask for, not necessarily what my budget is. 

There's not. On the website or I kind of discussed, I think it would take about $350 a month to, uh, make it neutral. Probably take a bit more than that to make it so that I could pay everybody what they ask for. Cause obviously, you know, some models ask for more, this episode's a little test of that. I asked Cassie to meet me at a local small studio and we met, talked to her a bit and I'm very short, unfortunately shoot, and then a shorter than normal interview. 

This was both because I was a little bit manic. , and because I lost probably 45 minutes in discussion and in setting up lighting and sound , , additionally the studio owner messaged me and said that they had someone coming in right after us. So we had to be out, , on the dot, , obviously in the future, I'll be better at the setup. 

, but I think a three hours is a safer time period. There are some echoing and Mike bleeding at times, and I think I got most of it, but apologies for any I EMS. It was a hardwood floor, bare walls, nothing really to soften the sound, unfortunately, the perils of on location recording, but I've got some ideas for how to improve that in the future. 

I also use my phone to record 15 minutes of video during the shoot. , while I was shooting with Faye, we were having a great time joking around and you know, one-upping each other. And I realized that might be something people would be interested in as well. So I pulled the MP3, , from that audio and added it at the end. 

Once I removed the silences, there was only seven minutes. , because, you know, obviously when you're shooting, you're not talking the entire time, but if you're interested, you can listen to that. , once you get to the point, , when I ask Cassie to share her social media information, there'll be right after that. 

You can stop the podcast there. If you don't really care about it, or you can listen to it. If you'd like it was recorded on my phone. So the quality is not great and it ends abruptly as we moved out of recording range towards the end, we shifted locations in the. So I cut it off there instead of including the garbled bits. 

If this is something you enjoy, please let me know. I can start recording and including audio from the entire shoot, maybe a video too, as part of a patron or something, you can watch my amateur self fumble through the entire shoot, which is always fun. Right? , I don't know. Maybe if people are interested, I also considered, , pain and bringing in a professional to come in and teach me, , to be a better photographer and videoing that and sharing that as part of a Patrion or something. 

Anyways with that. Uh I'm with the show. Hope you enjoy it. 

Good day, everyone. 

And welcome back to the not safe for work photography. podcast. There are thousands of models and photographers, creating adult content, using modern platforms and taking control of their own creative lives. Today, we're interviewing Cassie also known as emo hippie chick local to Fairfax county, Virginia. And she has been modeling on and off since 2013, but she's been at it more regularly for the past two to three years. 

She works in the more typical jobs such as fashion, laundry, and artistic nudes, But her favorite themes are horror, cosplay and under. Cassie has started taking photography more seriously, starting in the summer of 2020. And has worked with many and models in the DMV area. since then, our topic today is keeping things fresh and creative, both as model and photographer. 

So it doesn't feel like you're making the same pictures over and over again. I took that sentence verbatim from Kasey, very creative. 

Just as an FYI, we are sitting in a studio at the corner of what does that Elden street and Herndon. And you might be able to. hear The beeping of the crosswalk did not expect that when we set up this meeting. So I apologize that for that. in advance so Cassie He'd been on the podcast before, but you're here as part of a panel. So we really didn't get to explore your own modeling or your photography. We generally just talked about bad behavior of photographers. So let's start there. How did you get where you are in photography and modeling? What's your. origin story?  

[00:05:49] Kazzy: Oh man. So origin story, I guess it was around 2013. And man if I have any advice for new models is don't do how I did. 

When I started modeling, I was like, I'm going to just go on Craigslist and see who is looking through for model. It seemed like a great idea. Wow. There's so many people looking for models. I was very fortunate to know nothing bad happened to me. I met a very nice lady who did makeup art and she was looking to get into photography. 

So that was awesome. I shot like in a field and I had a long black skirt. Those are actually probably some of my favorite pictures I've done.  

[00:06:28] Matthew Holliday: It's kind of interesting though, because like two of those are red flags. in a field and Craigslist. I  

know, right.  

[00:06:34] Kazzy: We were just like off the side of some highway. It was a terrible idea, but what's the, I was what, like 19 or 20 at that time, I think it was like 19, so, Hmm. 

But yeah. Oh and no escort. I didn't ask for references. Wow. No, it was, it was not great, but that fortunately went well. And then I just did some stuff here and there with that.  

[00:06:59] Matthew Holliday: you know, what's interesting though. Is that probably how like all model photography was done in like the sixties. I mean, minus Craigslist, but you know, like in the sixties and seventies, it was all like, you know, Thumbtack. Yeah. Like, like index cards, thumb tacked on bulletin boards and stuff And there were no reviews, There were no escorts.  

[00:07:14] Kazzy: come to decree the old mansion down the road. 

[00:07:17] Matthew Holliday: why do you love horror?  

[00:07:19] Kazzy: You warned me,  

you were going to ask this question and I've been trying  

[00:07:22] Matthew Holliday: No I didn't This is all this is all off the cuff. this is all ad hoc. Totally not. Pre-planned I I'm just this brilliant. Normally  

[00:07:31] Kazzy: I  

know, right? Just the constant flow and the witty conversation.  

[00:07:35] Matthew Holliday: and brilliant. We're both.  

[00:07:36] Kazzy: but know, I guess it's like, you know, like why do you like the color red? Or why do you like ice cream? I mean, I mean, yes. So there we go. Whore is delicious. That is my answer. I just really like the creepy, like.  

[00:07:55] Matthew Holliday: the feelings you get.  

[00:07:56] Kazzy: Yeah, the feelings, the aesthetic. 

I mean, I always liked, you know, like kind of like the golf and the emo stuff. And with horror, you get to just play around with stuff you don't really experience in real life, unless you're a total psychopath, which, you know, hopefully the people I do my horror stuff with aren't total psychopaths,  

[00:08:17] Matthew Holliday: maybe a real good cover though.  

Like  

[00:08:19] Kazzy: it's all fake Yeah it's fake blood. It's fake. Well, mostly I'm the subject covered in the fake blood so we can see if we assume I have not murdered myself, 

[00:08:30] Matthew Holliday: This is copper coppery tasting. I just, just really  

realistic big flood So I see that you're also a model log grapher. How do you feel about that term?  

[00:08:41] Kazzy: I like it. I think it's just that much, slightly easier if it's saying model and photographer. So, and I know a lot of people I feel are getting more into the model, log refer kind of situation. 

Like a lot of models. I know, start out modeling and then get interested in photography. But I think I did actually meet one model who is actually a really big in the fashion scene right now, but she started in photography and then became a.  

[00:09:09] Matthew Holliday: I think it makes more sense than models who get into sculpture. 

I mean, you, You kind of know a lot of this stuff  

You know, I mean, just hanging around you're like, oh, you know, these are soft boxes and you know, these are, you know, where the lights should go. And these are you can pick up a lot of it already. And Frankly, if you're traveling as a model, a camera's are really portable way to take stuff with you too. 

Like it's a lot more portable than again, sculpture. What types of photography. do you like to do yourself the most?  

[00:09:38] Kazzy: I mean, I love working with models. I love doing again, like kind of the traditional booed wall and fashion and stuff. But again, my favorite is still going to be underwater horror and cosplay type stuff of a fantasy is really fantastic too. 

[00:09:56] Matthew Holliday: Imagine fantasy is real. Is it, is it mostly, do you do it mostly poster like practical effects?  

[00:10:01] Kazzy: So, my friends always laugh at me that I'm in these artistic fields, like photography and photo editing and stuff, because I'm a very impatient person. I have tried very hard to learn like composite work and like the fantasy manipulation stuff, but all my. 

It is so time-consuming, it will take, you know, like an hour to just like add one little detail  

[00:10:26] Matthew Holliday: I hate editing so much The pictures from bay. that I took care of that. 

I still haven't finished. 

editing them. I hate editing because it's so detail oriented and it's so, and I'm just like, I'm staring at them and I'm like, I know I need to edit these and I just, it's so painful. I need to be rich so that I can pay somebody else says I want to take the pictures and I just want to pay somebody else. 

to edit them  

[00:10:48] Kazzy: That and just like what helps is if you get a really good makeup artist for awhile the fantasy stuff, because a good makeup artists can already just make the picture.  

[00:10:59] Matthew Holliday: I mean, that's why when we started shooting today, I was like, all right, for the first time ever, I'm going to like, look at the wall, 

and like clean the mirror, like, like try and do that stuff ahead of time. 

Cause again, I just, I just, I just sigh in defeat when I see that stuff. And it's like in every picture, there's this thing that needs to be, that I could have taken care of ahead of time. It just hurts.  

[00:11:19] Kazzy: Ooh. A common one is, is a models will have the hair ties left around their wrist. I always forget to check. And then when I'm editing photos, I'm like, no. 

Oh my God. 

[00:11:31] Matthew Holliday: Every time, every time. 

 As someone who is on both sides of the camera, what's your best piece of advice for new models who want to do adult work nude work? You can call it whatever you like.  

[00:11:41] Kazzy: oh yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, I think for both and for all modeling really, but maybe a little more so for the nude Evan, even more so 40 erotic nude work, escort, escort, escort, like I said, don't do what I did when I started modeling that is stranger danger behavior escorts are so important. 

References are so  

[00:12:01] Matthew Holliday: Yeah Do you want to repeat what you said? I think right before we started recording. 

I think you said something about what you did with me.  

[00:12:07] Kazzy: Oh, yeah. So, I did something that I don't recommend you doing  

with new photographers, but he has You have worked I was like yeah well, no, I think that is important thing.  

If you are alone with someone that you don't know, you've never met before taking water from a stranger, you never know, man. I would rather be paranoid than dead in a  

[00:12:30] Matthew Holliday: I was, well, I was referring more to the fact that you checked in with Fay and anastasia may before  

[00:12:36] Kazzy: That's another thing. Yes. Let people know where you're going and who you're going to be with.  

[00:12:40] Matthew Holliday: Yeah. Yeah. And I, and I had two bottles of water. I offered her one and I drank out of the other one first.  

[00:12:47] Kazzy: Yeah. He let me choose, well, water rule that game here.  

[00:12:51] Matthew Holliday: And then she got, she, she could have waited to see if I passed out.  

[00:12:55] Kazzy: I mean, you know, it could be like you said that  

[00:12:58] Matthew Holliday: you saying  

[00:12:59] Kazzy: All right Well we'll see if I suddenly cut out speech during this podcast.  

Okay.  

Now you will know what happened to me. Well, I guess when you wouldn't post  

[00:13:08] Matthew Holliday: that's my kink. All right onto the top. 

we cut that out. That's a little, Maybe a little bit. 

for public, for public consumption. All right. So we're talking creativity. in general and how to keep things fresh. And I've seen a lot now a lot of these questions,  

Oh, I've seen a lot of takes on the subject of repetitive photos and they tend to fall into two buckets. One is pretty negative where people are complaining about repetitive motifs. You see a lot of people complaining about like, I'm so sick of seeing whatever the latest trend on ideas, like, you know, you know, we've seen so many pictures of people. in Tula Fields or whenever, you know, the sunflower fields in July or whatever, 10,000 people in sunflower  

The other is positive several models that I've spoken to will talk about how, even if it is a copy, when you combine a different model, a different photographer, a different field, or a different studio, a different lighting different times a day, you get subtly different setups that create sometimes wildly different, sometimes subtly different photos. 

Where do you fall on it?  

[00:14:12] Kazzy: So I love the sunflower example cause I was going to actually bring that up.  

That that's one where every year. Yeah, no, I mean, it's perfect though, because it is a perfect example of so many photographers complaining to me every year that they see. So many sunflower picks every single summer and it's way over done. 

And my view is, well as a photographer and as a model, I have not done sunflowers yet. So it is not a repetitive thing for me.  

I think that it is totally cool to be inspired by other people's work.  

I want to do something, even if that's, you know, popular or quote unquote overdone, I think what's important is for you as an individual to keep switching up your work Like if all I posted every single day was me and a sunflower field.  

Yeah.  

Yeah.  

That's a little much, but if I have one day I'm in a sunflower field, one day I'm into two up fueled one day I'm in a daisy field or so I'm switching it up. I'm switching it up, doing something different.  

[00:15:13] Matthew Holliday: Hmm. My heart, and my head are in different places. 

on this.  

my heart is like, no, you have to do something different. And I know that this is almost like a societal pressure. There's like a societal pressure that, you know, will be almost worshiped the the new, Like you have to do something different, you have to do something special, you have to do something new. 

And I let that, I mean, we talked earlier about almost like the analysis paralysis It lets you you're, It almost forces you, especially when talking with. I feel, I feel a pressure and nobody's putting this pressure on me. Like there's no, there's no single person saying you have to do something new, but we're talking about the model. 

and they're like, well, what do you want to do? I don't want to say, like, I want to do the exact same shoot. You've done a thousand times with every other photographer.  

even though it may be new to me like for example, I posted on Twitter, there was something about this really cool. shoot Where they have three different light sources and they're all primary colors. 

So in the light blends on the model, it's a white light, but it casts three different are actually cast six different shadows because of the way the lights blend. 

It creates like the different primary and secondary colors, shadows. And then I saw like once I saw that article, I started seeing like models with that shoot and photographers would that shoot in the thing. 

And I was like, oh, I just never seen it. Like once you see something, you start recognizing it everywhere. And I was like, oh, well, I guess that's not So unique, but that's dumb, like you said, I've never done that. shit. So I, know it's just interesting but my head intellectually is like, well, I've never done it, so I should try it still. 

So I don't know. , 

[00:16:38] Kazzy: I mean um I will also say something, I enjoy going to his workshops and that's something where everyone literally is doing the same thing. And yet the shops do turn out to be very different.  

[00:16:51] Matthew Holliday: I keep meaning to go to workshops and they keep not they're always, they're always in the middle of times, that's Other stuff is happening Like There's one tomorrow that I really wanted to go to. That's being put on locally with what looks like a really interesting model. I just cannot find time to go. So there's actually, there's like three groups in this area. They're all putting on Good buns.  

[00:17:09] Kazzy: Absolutely like, there's the time factor. And of course the money factor I know personally at this point, like I'm looking for something either. 

Very interesting. Like for example, I went to a workshop that had a fire dancer I was like, oh yeah, I am throwing money at that I've never worked at a fire dancer My fire dancing pictures were terrible because I working with, yeah, it's so hard, but so like, I'll do that. I won't necessarily go to a one single model is doing a boudoir I'm like, I have a lot of boudoir in my portfolio. I still enjoy doing it. I'm just less likely to want to spend a lot of money on it. Now, if you're like, there will be 10 laundry models at an event I'm like wow. Yeah, I will get a water content from a single day.  

So that's something else that  

[00:17:55] Matthew Holliday: wanted to really want to do like mega glam up  

[00:17:58] Kazzy: Oh well mega Glen is expensive It's awesome and amazing models. But when you have to pay for the event and pay for each individual model, all for one kind of deal.  

[00:18:10] Matthew Holliday: fair. Yeah. There was another one going on down in down in near Colepepper, Virginia. That Also, was kind of the same deal where you pay to go and then you have to pay the models too, but there's a whole bunch of models and you basically just like, shoot your butt off for like three or four days. 

I really want to go to, but again, like it's like a whole weekend and I'm like, oh, I really, really, really go to this, but Do I have, to have an entire weekend? 

And how Do I talk to my wife? And he just disappear for a weekend. Do you think, the, do you think, 

I really need to work on my transitions?  

[00:18:41] Kazzy: okay  

[00:18:41] Matthew Holliday: Do you think the majority of people are derivative, like in terms of like when they do their, for like a lot of the people the photographers you work with, do you think that they are derivative or do you think that. Or do you think that they're creative in a different way? Or how do you feel about like the majority of photographers? 

[00:18:56] Kazzy: I think that most photographers do have their own style, their own flavor that they add to all of their photos, no matter what the topic of it is. I do just honestly think at this point, like you were mentioning before kind of the cost to be original and to be  

creative  

and to do something, no one else has. 

It's impossible. It's 20, 22 It's the whole I don't know if you watch south park, but it's the Simpsons. Did it Simpsons? Did it like everything's been done. I know one photographer who he thought he was.  

God's gift on earth because he invented naked woman in the woods. He w he thought he did. He was like, everyone's just copying me. 

I'm like, unless you were born like 2000 years ago, I'm pretty sure a naked woman in the woods has been a thing for a very long  

[00:19:43] Matthew Holliday: here's cave drawings of like, These  

[00:19:45] Kazzy: are,  

[00:19:45] Matthew Holliday: trees,  

[00:19:47] Kazzy: which I mean, and that doesn't even mean that it's bad to do that. I'm just saying like, when someone's like, oh, someone's copying me for doing this. It's like, unless you are, what are we taking the same model, making them dude exactly the same thing, same location, same coves once, you know, even then you're allowed to be inspired and to like to do something just again, as long as you are Pope portfolio, As long as all of your pictures don't look exactly the same which some people do. 

Some people obviously just want very specific things. Some people are like, I just want this on my portfolio. And I don't find that very interesting or creative  

[00:20:25] Matthew Holliday: Yeah. I was talking about the photographer before, who is discussing how he did shots and his, his his shoots And now we have like a list of all the shots that he wanted and he would go down. 

at like a checklist and like hit each one. Now that being said, he's a way more successful than I am. I'm super amateur. Like I haven't sold any work to anybody. So He's obviously doing something way more than I do, although frankly, that's probably why is because he has to hit certain things that he knows he can sell. So there's less creativity in that work, but he's making money off it too. 

[00:20:55] Kazzy: I'm going I also think it's okay to have kind of like a theme or a brand. Like I know some people who like, they just do underwater photography that doesn't necessarily mean all their work looks the same If they only want to work with like one type of model, which I see this in some photographers portfolios, you know, you have the size zero white woman with long blonde hair It's like maybe  

[00:21:19] Matthew Holliday: switch up a little.  

I can kind of understand that. in some ways, though, That makes a lot of things a lot easier.  

You don't have to worry about like, how do I hide? Or maybe hide is not the right word, but like with somebody who has a perfect body, you don't have to worry about dealing with things You don't have to worry about like, like how do I incorporate like how do I try and find like, poses that work, like, stuff like that. 

You're like anything we'll work with this person. I can pose them in literally. any way. Like it's easy.  

[00:21:54] Kazzy: I definitely feel that. And I definitely get there's people like that I definitely think and again, I feel like I'm not even saying like, oh, you're dumb. If you do this, I'm just saying, I don't think you're a very creative person. If you do this, I totally get some people are out here, like 99% for the money you do that you hustle you know like  

[00:22:13] Matthew Holliday: Were just talking about that earlier. There's not, not that much of money out here, unfortunately.  

[00:22:17] Kazzy: Yeah.  

But like the. The thing about like human bodies is that everyone's is so different. And then finding a way to bring out everyone's individual beauty, I feel is a challenge that creatives should strive for because everyone does have that. Like, I know a lot of people are like, oh, well haha I don't have that. You couldn't find a good picture of me. It's like, no you can. You really can. It doesn't matter to me like body size, body shape. What race or what color your skin is or whatever, if you have any kind of physical disabilities, like I've seen people do amazing work with literally every type of person. And I think that's the creative way, creative vision that we should strive for as creatives. 

Again, if you're here just to make money, like if you make money by selling pictures of hot blondes, then all right, I feel you, if you're trying to do something. Creative. And if you're trying to learn and grow as a photographer, that's, that's just what I think anyways.  

[00:23:20] Matthew Holliday: One of the things that I've seen about creativity recently there's been a lot of studies on creativity. Cause everybody's so obsessed with creativity in our environment.  

One of the things they've talked about is how creativity is not going Haring off in a completely new direction because frankly, people that go hearing off in a completely new and unseen direction are frequently regarded as madman. They're like, ah, this guy's crazy. But it's usually taking something that's already been done. And then just adding a little twist, to it. Like, you know, the, the big example is that an iPhone was not completely new. It was taking a cellular and. a IPod and combining them, and then an iPod was taking a Walkman and a computer and putting them together. 

Like they're just it's, it's combining two things that already exist, which frankly goes to what you're talking about, which is taking something that's already been done. And at least in art is taking something that's already been done. And then combining that with your own your own twist your own style. 

So yeah, so it really, it really we're just obsessing over something that doesn't really matter.  

Yeah.  

[00:24:16] Kazzy: And I agree with you. I think science and art are very similar in this way is that you have. Just taking something one step further than it already was. Like you said, there's very rarely anything that's totally brand new. 

And I agree with what you said that then you're kind of a madman. Like they thought they were crazy for suggesting you should wash your hands before performing surgery. Like you were a crazy person for saying  

[00:24:37] Matthew Holliday: they fired that guy.  

Like they lay, they literally kicked him out and. I think he died in a. literalist, insane asylum, like,  

[00:24:45] Kazzy: But then the hospital realized once they sacked him, the death rates went back up and they're like Ooh  

[00:24:50] Matthew Holliday: Yeah. So what, what do you think? Well, you know what, this is now that I have another I'm reading this question This is a super obvious question. What drives people to take similar pictures to others? 

Well, recognition  

Lack of the disbelief and trying to do something. else. As a dumb question. I apologize. I apologize. to the listeners for forcing that in your ears. But the next one's a little more important. How do you, force yourself to take pictures that are different or do you, do you just go with the impulse to do the same picture when you see something that is similar and you want to take a similar picture Do you just run with it or you try and force yourself to do something a little bit?  

[00:25:22] Kazzy: I think it depends on the situation. I think I definitely try to do both. I know that. Recently, I went to a workshop featuring a fine art nude model. And she was wonderful by did some of the main group part. So I am just doing what everyone else is doing. And then I also hired her for one-on-one for after demean session was done. 

And I'm trying to think, I'm like, what can I do with the naked lady?  

Like she is naked. Okay. You know, so I was really just looking for a little extra things I could add. To give it my own flavor, my own twist. So I know I'm one of the things I did was I got little paper butterflies and like their wings fold up and stuff. 

It looks semi realistic after you take the picture and edit it.  

So I just covered her in butterflies and I threw her in the little rose garden outside. So that was just one way. I was like, take a naked lady, add something to it. And. that's my  

[00:26:23] Matthew Holliday: fault naked lady. But You know, what's funny is actually the first thing that popped into my mind whether when you were like, what to do with the naked lady, I was like giant plushy. Like full-sized like, life-size like giant, So, but but it's the same thing. It's naked lady Plus something. 

That's the formula.  

[00:26:38] Kazzy: Oh so, so really it is just, you can do things that have a very specific vision. Something that you're very specifically inspired by something, but I just like going to photo shoots and I just bring extra stuff just in case I can do something with it, like recently. I was just like, what if I just bring a bunch of paint and dump it on someone that could be. The model was a real sport. She loved it. Oh man.  

That model. Can I just say that model was crazy on a little side? Tangent.  

I love her. She's amazing she  

[00:27:09] Matthew Holliday: her?  

[00:27:11] Kazzy: Probably not model solamente. She's awesome. I love working with her. I will work with her all the time, but I told her I was like on a fruit kick and I still am like, I want to take a model and I tell them, you can't do any of these fruits because I've done them. But what's your favorite fruit besides these fruits And she's like, oh, I want to do a pineapple shoot. She was so pumped for the pineapple shoot and how it was so down with it, we had lots of fun later.  

She posts something on her social media. Oh, allergic reactions are to worse. I was like, what happened?  

She's like, I'm allergic to pineapples. I'm like, did you know you were allergic to pineapples? And she's like, yep. I was like, you are wonderful, but crazy. I love you. I love you, solamente You are awesome.  

But wow.  

It was her idea. She wanted to do it. 

[00:27:57] Matthew Holliday: Oh my God. I've heard that. So that's a frequent recommendation to photographers when they're talking about being in a creative ditch, they're like Peck, but usually it's in the sense of like restricting yourself to equipment.  

It's like pick a focal length, But I like the idea of picking a prop or like a series of props, like fruit or something. 

Something that you can do a series out of, not just like, like a sword, make a picture with a model and a sword but like picking a series or maybe a location. So. 

Fruit  

[00:28:26] Kazzy: Food and journal. I like food. I like being like, oh, or, you know, like let's dump some honey on you or whatever. I mean, that's a little more common, I guess but I don't know, just like having just adding something to make some texture to everything  

[00:28:39] Matthew Holliday: Just the guy with cameras, like a whipped cream,  

[00:28:44] Kazzy: cream and cherries, right?  

[00:28:47] Matthew Holliday: Maybe  

[00:28:47] Kazzy: not, 

[00:28:48] Matthew Holliday: It's like, give me that.  

[00:28:50] Kazzy: but yeah, so, you know, I've done strawberries. Strawberries is a pretty common one. My favorite one was a girl went with me to gardens and we just threw all the strawberries in the year.  

We were really not supposed to do this.  

We picked it up though.  

Like we didn't like leave garbage  

[00:29:05] Matthew Holliday: I'm going to bleep out the name of the gardens. Cause I think they charge you to do portraits there.  

Oh you did  

[00:29:10] Kazzy: it You're just not supposed to bring food in Yes  

[00:29:14] Matthew Holliday: out there  

[00:29:14] Kazzy: That's fine. Yeah. Believe out the  

[00:29:16] Matthew Holliday: So , how do you typically balance that? Do you try to do like half and half when you shoot, do you try and do like, all right, I'm going to do, , the first half of this shoot is the stuff that I've always done and then we're gonna do something daring the second half. 

Like, to put the workshop where you did something that everybody else is doing and then. when you got the title,  

[00:29:28] Kazzy: Yes. So definitely at work shops, it is half and half. Like I do try to get some one-on-one time with the models afterwards, both so I can make sure, you know, they're getting some money for the time they spent, but  

also so I can do  

[00:29:42] Matthew Holliday: they have you modeled for any workshops. Do you typically get your hourly? for that  

[00:29:46] Kazzy: It  

depends.  

Some do. And some say the first portion is TFP and then people can. Pay you  

for afterwards So  

yeah, 

[00:29:59] Matthew Holliday: it's really, they  

charge like a hundred or 150 bucks for the workshop And if you've got like, and usually it's between four and eight people for a workshop. I mean, depending sometimes it's more, but then that's kind of crazy, but like, if there's like six people there and they pay 150. bucks that.  

[00:30:16] Kazzy: Yeah. I mean, it depends on the location. I know sometimes that money, a lot of that money does go to the location, but  

definitely  

[00:30:23] Matthew Holliday: but even a pretty nice studio. 

is like 

150 bucks an hour. So if you've reserved the studio for three hours. That's 450 bucks you still have enough money. to pay the model.  

[00:30:31] Kazzy: Oh I  

agree.  

I'm at the point where I've definitely been to a couple workshops. Where I thought I was going to get more pictures out of it at the very least, like they're usually up front, at least I'm not going in expecting to be paid and then I'm not paid. 

Like everyone's always upfront about that, but it's at the point where I can't force photographers to give me pictures. So I'm kind of done doing free workshops because I just, I don't  

[00:30:55] Matthew Holliday: know  

what that I guess, you know what that does make sense Cause the one for the one workshop I went to last fall I did actually get one of the people I was like, Hey, you haven't sent pictures to so-and-so yet. and they never told me I had to, although looking back on it, it makes sense Cause they charge so low that it makes sense that it was a DFP, but they didn't tell me ahead of time. And I was like, but after again, after the fact I was like, oh, that makes total sense that it was. But yeah,  

[00:31:19] Kazzy: and I do appreciate when the event managers tell the photographers, these models are not getting paid. 

You have to get them their pictures back.  

Oh, well, even that you still don't  

guarantee But I have met a lot of photographers who I'll be at an event and sometimes will be just like large shootout events. And the photographers are like, I didn't know the models aren't getting paid. I was like, yeah.  

[00:31:41] Matthew Holliday: Yeah. 

Cause I didn't understand the economics of this event because it was like the same number of photographers, and the same number of models. And I was like, wow. Cause I, my assumption was that the models were getting paid from the fees. Like that's why the photographers paid was to pay the models. But now that you've said that, like I never it didn't occur to me that. 

it was to.  

[00:31:58] Kazzy: Yeah, of course. And again, some photographers totally do pay their all, especially for a lot of the smaller events. But a lot of the times there'll be like, no, you're coming to this thing and you're not getting paid just for coming, but you're welcome to charge people for like nudes or for one-on-one time or whatever  

[00:32:15] Matthew Holliday: Yeah That's although, you know, you're right. 

You're kind of right though in the sense that, because I was thinking of the the shoot as being like a two hour. But a lot of them do offer the one-on-one time. So the organizers, the shoot, do you have to run out the, studio for like four or five hours, not just two hours. And if the studio is like a hundred bucks. like That's a five or $150. 

like that's a lot more expensive  

[00:32:38] Kazzy: And it can be, it can be helpful to, to model, to do a little bit of free shooting and then have to pay one-on-one because then you have multiple people who all want to shoot you at the same place. At the same time. You don't have to worry about scheduling it outside of that.  

So I get it, but again, as long as everyone's honest and models don't have to work for free, but they can also decide to do that if they want to. 

But.  

[00:33:04] Matthew Holliday: yeah.  

[00:33:05] Kazzy: But yeah, just always something to keep in mind. Always try to be clear if the models are getting paid, because then that puts a lot more responsibility on you as the photographer.  

[00:33:15] Matthew Holliday: That makes sense.  

on the on the subject of social media, do you think that social media is a negative or positive for creativity?  

[00:33:24] Kazzy: I think it really depends on the individual. 

Like how people view everything, because of course, some people can view everything on social media and be like, oh, well, I'll never be able  

to do this stuff. And they get really discouraged. But on the other hand, I think it is a pretty good well of inspiration. Like if you choose to view it that way, I love looking at everyone else's work out there. 

There are people doing amazing things. And I have definitely seen things where I was like, okay, I want to do something like that. Not exactly.  

But definitely want to do something like that. And it helps me when I'm in creative ruts. Absolutely. But of course, as always social media can just be really distracting and keep you away from reality and all that stuff. 

[00:34:12] Matthew Holliday: How do you keep track of what's inspiring and what's not, do you use mood birds or anything? like that?  

[00:34:15] Kazzy: I do. I don't for everything. But I do absolutely kind of have a Pinterest mood board of just things I kind of want to do. So  

I have like my photography board and then I have my little sub boards, so I'll have like, oh, here's some cool, like kind of golf stuff I want to do. 

Here's some underwater stuff I want to do. And then what I always like to do, especially if I'm trying to work TFP with a model is I'll be like, here's my mood.  

What me know if any of these themes, any of these individual pictures, anything on here, it looks interesting. And I tell them I'm open to their ideas as well. 

Cause that's why I think a TFP should be  

is  

[00:34:55] Matthew Holliday: not that the photographer just dictates the model exactly what we're doing  

[00:34:59] Kazzy: or vice versa. Some people, man, I see from both ends of both models and photographers, where do I looking for TFP? And it has to be exactly this and nothing else. And I'm like,  

That's  

okay. I guess if you find someone who does want to do exactly that, but I really think a TFP should be a lot more of a collaboration of, I do a little bit of what you want. 

And we do a little bit of what I want. Hopefully they're both things that we both want to do,  

but but yeah, I like the mood board because again, I don't want to do necessarily exactly the things that are on my mood board, but it's inspiring. And then I'm like, I know my friend.  

I was working with her recently and she liked some stuff on my mood board. 

And then she was like, okay, what do you want to do? Like there was this lady who was just wearing you know a wide brimmed hat and she was like doing little implied poses with it and stuff  

[00:35:49] Matthew Holliday: Instagram feed. Yeah, But what's blood, right?  

[00:35:52] Kazzy: exactly.  

Because she was like do you want to do the hat thing Or do you want to do the golf blood thing?  

I was like, why do we have to choose between the two? 

Exactly. We'll do both.  

[00:36:02] Matthew Holliday: Yeah. That's interesting. It is. Yeah. And that's exactly what we're talking about with the creativity You talked to things that existed and you smashed them together.  

[00:36:12] Kazzy: Exactly.  

[00:36:14] Matthew Holliday: That's hilarious. I mean, you can just add blood to anything. We should have brought, we should have just brought a pint of pig's blood in it.  

[00:36:22] Kazzy: well, you gotta be careful when you're renting out studios though.  

They don't always like it. When you bring a bunch of fake wood or real pigs, bud, I haven't worked with real pigs blood.  

[00:36:31] Matthew Holliday: I bet it's a lot. 

harder to get out of clothes than real. How hard is fake blood to get out of  

[00:36:37] Kazzy: It depends. I mean, there is a staining component in.  

From the, I guess the red dye that's in it really though is okay As long as you wash it right away my problem is I'm lazy and I'll just have like my blood so close and like a little bag and it'll just sit in my laundry room for like a month. 

And then I try to wash him and it doesn't totally come out.  

But the times I remember to clean it right away. And of course I was always, it was a little harder to come out of white clothes, but again, if you wash it right away, it's usually not too.  

[00:37:11] Matthew Holliday: That's fair. So since you were talking about working with Faye about this how do you work with other people to come up with ideas? 

You were talking about the TFP and the other thing. Do you, do like you know, you have a group of group of friends that are models that you work with quite a bit. Do you guys kind of sit together in jam sessions, and like hammer out ideas  

[00:37:28] Kazzy: or  

[00:37:29] Matthew Holliday: it more organic  

[00:37:30] Kazzy: I mean definitely with my group of friends that I have. Hang out with regularly, just in real life and stuff. 

A lot of our ideas absolutely come when we're just like drinking and dicking around and we're like, oh my God, you know, what would be amazing?  

That's how we got how many people have seen this content, but we did a donut deemed sexy shoe. And that absolutely came when I was just bonkers drunk from my birthday. 

So, I mean, obviously sometimes when you sober up the ideas don't sound so good, but sometimes you're like, you know what? No, this is amazing. It's perfect. We loved it.  

But yeah, I think just working with other people, being able to bounce ideas off, and then sometimes you come up with an idea and another person adds to it. 

And then that's how you create a. Cohesive complicated. Beautiful thing  

[00:38:28] Matthew Holliday: But for art,  

[00:38:29] Kazzy: Yes.  

But I also think  

um  

[00:38:31] Matthew Holliday: have to add on  

[00:38:32] Kazzy: a lot of the times we plan for a photo shoot and then we just accidentally do something or we decide something last minute at the photo shoot, like, there's definitely the group pictures of us and we're kind of like the hillbilly trailer, trash people that was at our Christmas shoot. 

Like we're just like, you know, what would be great.  

If we were all hicks.  

[00:38:56] Matthew Holliday: Yeah, no that's  

[00:38:57] Kazzy: did  

[00:38:57] Matthew Holliday: perfectly like Christmas. I'm totally there.  

Totally there  

[00:39:00] Kazzy: it was it was very warm at day two.  

So it worked out we were just like on the little porch and  

[00:39:05] Matthew Holliday: here is ridiculous.  

[00:39:06] Kazzy: so crazy.  

[00:39:08] Matthew Holliday: we had like what a freezing day, like late in April, like two days  

ago or  

[00:39:12] Kazzy: recently And it goes from like 80 degrees to  

32  

[00:39:15] Matthew Holliday: today's it's going to be back up to 68 or 70 or something so one more, one more question then we'll close it out. So how do you find the courage to find something artistically challenging or to do a style you've never attempted before? And I'm especially referring to this in conjunction with doing it with somebody else, like working with a model. 

Like if you have a model you want to do something that's really challenging. You've never done it before. It'll probably be a failure. How do you approach to do something like that? or for a photographer  

[00:39:41] Kazzy: Sure So oftentimes if I'm not sure what the outcome will be, if I'm not sure it's going to be good, I'm going to either pay the photographer  

or model, or it's going to be with someone that I'm really good friends with And we all want to try it out with, because if I feel, I can't guarantee like as a photographer, if I feel I can't guarantee getting good pictures back to the model. And especially if there's something very specific from the model I want, like with the fire dancing I'm going, I'm going to pay you for your skill, especially since I don't know if I'll get your picture back, I'm going to ask the  

model, same thing where I'm like, I have no idea what I'm doing but let's try it out.  

I'm going to be like either we're friends and you're okay doing it with me, or I'm going to pay you for if your expertise is in this area.  

Like, especially when. Starting out with the underwater modeling and stuff. And then still a little. Now I definitely have my friends who are willing to do to underwater stuff with me, but that's also something that sometimes I'm willing to pay for. 

So that way I can have the best brought out in me,  

[00:40:46] Matthew Holliday: Like I'm paying for this I'm going to get something out of that How do you do underwater modeling? Where do you do Is there like a. tank, Like a deep tank. Do you do, like, do you have like an air regulator, like oxygen so you can stay under longer. Do You have like 62nd bursts while you hold your  

[00:41:03] Kazzy: Yeah, it's pretty much the 62nd bursts. I would love to get certified in free diving. And there is this stuff where you get. You have to be trained to do it. I wouldn't want to do it without being trained where you do like borrowed the oxygen from the scuba divers and stuff But for now, mostly I've just been doing I have done a tank circus siren, pod does little events where they rent out. 

There tank. So that's fun because the photographer gets the stager. I,  

[00:41:34] Matthew Holliday: Oh. So like right outside, like it's like clear  

[00:41:36] Kazzy: yep It's just clear  

plexi. Yep. And then I've also done swim. You is really awesome. It's like Airbnb, but for pools. So I just rent a pool. Um so for that of course sometimes depending on where you're shrinking the pool and the editing you do, like, it looks like you're shooting at a pool. 

So that's the downside of that But it's really good for just where I am right now. I would love to do like actual, like, Ginnie Springs and Florida is supposed to have really clear, beautiful, like natural water. I'd love to do that But for now in Virginia this is, this is what I got.  

[00:42:11] Matthew Holliday: Yeah. Yeah. Or water, like even in the ocean is not especially clear and it doesn't get deep, very fast. 

either. 

So you can't really Interesting  

[00:42:20] Kazzy: over the ocean has some cool stuff. I would love to, if I ever get into like more of this scuba gear stuff, do you ever watch the cool, you know, shipwrecks and stuff underwater? I've seen like mermaids swimming around. It looks so cool, but I'm not there yet.  

[00:42:35] Matthew Holliday: You reminded me I should do something for the. 

For the, for the social media too. 

We should have a center things next to. each other. So we'll have to do that afterwards I can take a picture of both of us to put on the, on the Insta feed. All right. And now I said the same note, I'm a little squirrely. I'm like, I'm like, Ooh, shiny object. Alright. One last thing I wanted to throw a shout out there to Catherine who helped me out with some of the questions. I mentioned, in a chat. We were in that I was struggling with some questions on creativity and she dropped about 20. 

on my head. I told her that I would give her. 

co-writer credit on this. So there it is. All right. So for our close outs, because I have been told by the guy who owns the studio that we are in here in Herndon that he said he's got somebody coming in and he needs us to clear out on time. But Cassie, do you have any projects? you want bug,  

[00:43:25] Kazzy: I mean there's  

[00:43:26] Matthew Holliday: you love doing underwater photography Apparently, if anybody  

[00:43:29] Kazzy: and modeling and modeling Oh yeah. I'm always up to. Underwater stuff. And that's I here with, I have some beautiful myrrh Taylor mermaid tails, as well as just doing like very flowy dresses or whatever else. And again, I'm also always down for horror if you're like, hey show up in fake blood Yeah dude. That is absolutely on my list so vote the fake blood underwater.  

I don't know how well that would work, but like horror underwater stuff. Absolutely  

[00:43:58] Matthew Holliday: like a little floating prosthetic arm next to you a little blood. drifting.  

[00:44:02] Kazzy: I know I'm a never underwater model out there is Merman Triston. I've heard you to grapevine, but he likes  

[00:44:10] Matthew Holliday: Whereas at a  

[00:44:11] Kazzy: maybe  

[00:44:12] Matthew Holliday: on your Instagram feed,  

[00:44:13] Kazzy: probably not because I don't think I've had pictures with him I met him at murmur magic con but I've heard that he enjoys the horror stuff. So I would love to do horror stuff with him at some point  

[00:44:23] Matthew Holliday: Yeah, just like a Merman with like a knife, dripping blood. And like,  

[00:44:26] Kazzy: I am going to be an underwater sea witch take drowning victim soon. That's on my to-do list. No,  

[00:44:34] Matthew Holliday: I think it was really realistic. And I was like, yeah, we had to go through like four or five victims. before we got the shot, but  

[00:44:39] Kazzy: I'm like oh they were blinking. 

[00:44:42] Matthew Holliday: to play key. All right. So where can everyone find you online?  

[00:44:46] Kazzy: Yeah, so, modeling my Instagram is emo hippie chick photography. I'm snazzy Cassie photos. I'm going to have only fans as well, and that is also emo hippie chick for my free account. And then emo hippie chick premium for the paid  

[00:45:03] Matthew Holliday: for premium  

[00:45:04] Kazzy: Yes for the premium content.  

 So, what I've been struggling with in terms of monetization is that the group of people that is interested in the podcast about photography, and you want me to get just a couple to make sure the lighting is we started off, just occurred to me that I probably shouldn't be relying on. This is not bad. 

Exposure wise. It's pretty good. It's moderately directional, pretty solid. 

A little bit more this way there, could you move a little closer? Not to a wall, but like that way? Yeah. Um, so my, uh, because of the core audiences, photographers and models, but when that audience you're asking post, sorry, but that. It's not huge. I mean, there's a lot of, there's a lot of dudes who want to be photographers, especially with, you know, naked girls. 

Cause 

the guys who cameras and then there's a photographers, 

but 

generally speaking, like there's not enough. To really make a successful podcast. So you can look at these, you can get a little bit of twinkle from the lights in the background. Is that good or bad? That's it? That's good. We're just thinking about the, uh, just thinking about the, uh, the background. So this, this is a 2.8 lens. 

So we're getting a little bit of blur from the background. Again, you're hiding the, uh, that, which is good. Cause I'm using, I don't have to edit it. Probably edit that out, but that should be a pretty easy clone out. That's pretty good. Maybe, maybe a little closer, like right here. So maybe see if we can get, 

um, but it's still like, it's not, and I know it's never going to be like a Joe Rogan softened, I guess there's not 2 million people that want to listen to us. Talk about photography, but I'd like to make enough. To be able to pay the models to come on and make it self-sustaining. Yeah. for all of this is always the hardest part. 

Yeah. Yeah. Cause that's the same problem that every photographer heads, right? I mean, that's why so many models and so many photographers are turning to like only fans and stuff. Right. It was a lot of people don't necessarily want to do that type of content. And then even with that, it's still about getting people to pay for your page. 

On my free page, I'd have like followers on the only fans on my page page. Right now. I only have , so it's like a lot of people. I mean, the promise there's so much content out there. So we have to stand out. It's really hard to be like, well, if you can only pay for one or two. Only fans you should pay for mine. 

It's hard. 

Uh, that sounds about right though. Cause I've heard that the conversion rate is about 1% for people that follow you pay for, but then on my Instagram I have almost 3000. Well, that's interesting. So you're getting a conversion from Instagram to your free and then a from free. Yeah. And of course, you know, I don't do explicit. 

Like I don't have any pornographic content. Like usually people pay for something they want to see you like doing something. Yeah. Cause I feel like that's what the models have to do is they have to almost make people fall in love with him. Like they have to try and force. And then once people fall in love with you though, like now you have a whole suite of other problems. 

Like, I mean, some people manage it really well, but like, it is just that extra thing. 

can you roll up your sleeves a little bit and put this on the tattoo on your arms? Yeah. We'll hold on, stop right there. Like I was talking about before, like the details, like I'd like to kind of do like, like something that. I want to look about winning that big mud just on here. 

Hmm, sure. I get, because this was some of the stuff that I saw on, like those sort of posts I take here, like how do they like tell a story from just like a tiny sliver of an image? Like I'm not somebody that I'm totally unexperienced with, but I think it's really cool. Although now, I guess you're from here because we get the soft box in the background that can do that. 

And then let's try it. Let's try it directly here. Actually extended out a little bit towards me. So the rest of these out of focus 

actually hold the most. 

35 millimeter, 1.8, maybe you're grabbing a real thin slice. 

It's a manual. So it's real interesting to focus. Sometimes 

I love my camera because it's a, you know, you had the screen preview and you just press with your finger and then it focuses and takes it back. 

Yeah. Actually turned off that screen. Cause I got tidied up with my nose. 

I'm an old man though. So let's try it again. Although I have to use, I have to use 

manual. Let's get, make sure we are on. Have 1.4, one direction for focusing intercourse. Let's go behind you. See that watch you're 

holding up a little higher since. So, so basically I'm only seeing like that much of you. 

Hold on. Listen. We're really, really short. 

Okay. Hold on. Say it. I need to actually adjust this since I'm not 1.4 for you two. Oh yeah. 

And sit down down or put four is one soccer, two stops. I want them to have stops. Let's try that. 

um, 

can you rotate it a little bit other direction? All right. They're a little bit higher. A little bit back towards the light, but not too much. Pharmacists do problems. Everything is facing the light is giving me a lot of glare a little bit more this way. Yeah. 

it turned on focus, peeking in here by. 

um, real quick and let's move over to the couch. We need to start finding actual. 

So what I was thinking I was, so this is, well, this is kind of a test run for, is what I'm talking about doing as a teacher is doing like a three hour, uh, thing, because part of what I'm planning on doing 

back a little bit in the Lucas, back up 

1 64 spot we're talking about doing is. Three hour sessions instead of 

two hours. Uh, cause one of the things is I can't afford to pay models to come on the podcast and be amongst the sheep budget to do one. Uh, so yeah, so I'm kinda, uh, it's very during COVID it was fine. Like I did my, my wife didn't want me shooting with people anyways. She didn't want me exposing, potentially getting. 

Um, so what's your adjust? The backup to one 64th, 1 32. All right. Let me check real quick is 

somebody that's a little more, a little more direction.  

[00:52:12] Matthew Holliday: And with that, we're done. 

Check us out@thensfwphotographypodcast.com on Twitter. Is at, in SFW photography, Instagram at the NSFW photography podcast, and subscribe on your favorite podcast app.