NSFW Pod 029 - Model Panel!

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NSFW29_ModelPanel 

[00:00:00] Matthew Holliday: Good day, everyone. And welcome back to the not safe for work photography podcast. There are thousands of models and photographers, creating adult content, using modern platforms, taking control of their own creative lives. Today, we're doing something a little different. We are doing a panel with three models who are here to discuss model safety and photographers, specifically bad behavior on the part of photographers. 

I just realized this means that I'm going to have to have a panel of photographers. Talking about bad behavior on the site of models will probably be completely different, bad behavior. I'm guessing for our panel today. Anastasia Maye EmoHippieChick and Taylor. Anastasia may is a full-time freelance traveling model. 

With four years of modeling experience. She is based in the DMV and also travels to Pennsylvania, New Jersey and Ohio nearly every month. She shoots mainly fashion food and our food. If anyone is interested in working with her, she would love for you to send her a DM to discuss shoot concepts. Kazzy also known as emo hippie chick is local to Fairfax county, Virginia, and has been modeling on and off since 2013, but has been more at it more regularly for the past two to three years, she works in a more typical jobs, such as fashion, laundry, and artistic nudes, but her favorite themes are horror, cosplay and underwater. 

Kazzy also started taking photography more seriously starting in the summer of 2020, and just worked with many models in the DMV area. Since then, Taylor is a 27 year old model from New Hampshire. She has been modeling since last fall and loves creative. She dabbles in fashion, Boudreau, nude, editorial, and more. 

She loves her cat, friends and family. And as an independent free spirit who loves to create, why do I feel like I'm on a game show? Come on down. How are you guys doing today? 

[00:02:01] Taylor: I'm doing great.  

[00:02:04] EmoHippieChick: Well, that's good. 

[00:02:08] Matthew Holliday: All right. It just, it just occurred to me. We should probably identify whose is whose voice so people listening, although it is somewhat more anonymous, if nobody knows who's making the comment, maybe we should leave it more anonymous. Let's do that. I guess, if we're going to discuss bad behavior on the part of photographers, let's start with some examples. 

Does anybody have, does anybody have a volunteer instance of bad behavior from a photographer? 

[00:02:38] EmoHippieChick: Uh, I think all three of us are. Yes. 

[00:02:39] Taylor: was just going to say, I'm sure we all do. Yeah,  

[00:02:43] Matthew Holliday: you know, what's interesting. Uh, one of the people I originally reached out with said she hadn't had any bad experiences with photographers. I was like, oh, 

[00:02:51] Anastastia Maye: How long  

[00:02:51] Matthew Holliday: guess you're not going to be very helpful on this panel. Are you? 

[00:02:57] EmoHippieChick: I mean good on her. Like that's, that's the dream right 

[00:03:01] Matthew Holliday: Yeah. Yeah. All right. But someone's got to start someone else to go. Well, let's, let's start with messaging bad behavior, online, bad behavior.  

[00:03:09] Taylor: okay. So, um, when I very first started my Instagram account for modeling, I had a photographer who had like, I think like 15,000 followers, headshot people like J Cole and other celebrities. And he reached out and said, Hey, can I show you my art? And I was like, okay, sure. And then he sent me a video of his Dick getting sucked and I was like, Oh cool, thanks. That's awesome. Love that. Um, so yeah, that was like the first experience I had with a photographer online. And it was, yeah, it was that  

[00:03:51] EmoHippieChick: Hey, I'm sorry. You don't appreciate Monet quality art. 

[00:03:55] Taylor: you  

[00:03:56] Matthew Holliday: Was it at least? Well lit. 

[00:03:58] Taylor: know, it was actually super dark. 

[00:04:00] EmoHippieChick: Oh man. 

[00:04:01] Matthew Holliday: Wow. 

[00:04:04] EmoHippieChick: I guess I'll bring up that oftentimes like I will straight up. No, but I'm not doing a photo shoot based off of messages. Like I had one guy who I was kind of trying to schedule something with. And first red flag was, he sent me nude work. He had done with other models like uncensored. And I'm thinking like, does he have permission from these models to do that? 

Is this what he's going to do? If my work sent it to random people. And then when I told him, because at that moment I didn't do full nudes. I only did implied. And he's like, why are you ashamed of your body? And that's a huge red flag trying to like Gaslight or guilt trip you into doing something that you don't want to do. 

And he was. Fended. When I brought up, I wanted to bring an escort and he was like, well, how do I know you're not some crazy girl who is hot for me and wants to break up my marriage and stuff.  

[00:05:01] Taylor: Don't flatter yourself, sir.  

[00:05:03] EmoHippieChick: Right. And then the final straw for me, because for some reason, this wasn't already a final straw, but he wanted to, he would not tell me where he wanted to do to photo shoot. He wanted to meet at a Starbucks and then drive us to, to photo shoot location. 

[00:05:22] Matthew Holliday: Serial 

[00:05:22] EmoHippieChick: was like, no, 

[00:05:25] Taylor: Yeah,  

[00:05:26] Matthew Holliday: killer vibes. 

[00:05:27] Anastastia Maye: Oh, well, I had a guy recently want to do a shoot with me. Well, first of all, it's going to be a hotel shoot with like another model. So he wanted me to stay there overnight with the other model, which like, first of all was kind of like, eh, but then he was like, oh, it's going to be on a remote island. I'm like, whoa, like really fucking creepy. 

And then like later on like a day or two later, he was like, by any chance, like, can you understand conversational? w can I do? I was like, no way. He would've known that without like, doing some serious research into me, like outside of my life. So, 

[00:06:07] EmoHippieChick: know, that sounds like some sex trafficking thing right there, 

[00:06:11] Matthew Holliday: Oh, she doesn't speak French. We can say whatever we want to about what we're going to do with her over here. 

[00:06:16] Taylor: yeah. and  

[00:06:17] EmoHippieChick: or she might worth more if she speaks French. 

[00:06:20] Taylor: true. Um, also, I, it's not just before the photo shoots, there was a guy who I, you know, was, was okay. He was a little weird, but there's this, there's a blurred line between weird and creepy and predatory. So, I was like, he's kind of weird, but you know, whatever, I'll work with him again. 

And then, then the night that, I. Uh, like after I shot with him, he started sending me like messages at like 2:00 AM drunk and, you know, saying like, oh, I wish I was shooting with you right now. And like, oh, I can't wait until like, we do our next shoot and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, okay, you need to stop  

[00:07:04] Matthew Holliday: but that but that brings up kind of a, so a lot of photographers shoot with models that they're attracted to. Why they're doing it, they're there. They're trying to capture their vision of beauty and their vision of beauty is usually related to who they're attracted to. Um, and then comment, like you talked about earlier with the flirting, like the flirty looks towards the camera, like you definitely build up like a weird false rapport 

[00:07:33] Taylor: Yeah, absolutely.  

[00:07:34] EmoHippieChick: But that's really what separates armature photographers from professional  

[00:07:41] Taylor: that there's a phrase that I learned recently. Um, DWC guy with camera. Um, 

I'm sure, I don't know if you guys have heard of it, but basically, yeah. basically just, just a guy who buys a camera just to take pictures of women in compromising positions like nude or, you know, whatever. And there. are so many of those. 

It is, they definitely outnumbered the professional photographers, in my opinion, especially when you get into nude and boudoir modeling. 

[00:08:15] Matthew Holliday: And that makes sense.  

[00:08:16] Taylor: Yeah.  

[00:08:17] Matthew Holliday: Number one, being a photographer, being a real good photographer, it takes a lot of effort and a lot of time, but there's just a huge number of dudes. I was who was I talking? I was talking about this somebody the other month, but they grew up on, you know, Playboy or penthouse, you know, sneaking their dad's Playboy or penthouse. 

And then now they've got the fantasy of being the famous photographer. And that's what they're trying to do here is they're trying to live out that fantasy, which frankly kind of puts this just feels real close to sex work in some ways.  

[00:08:47] Taylor: Yeah, absolutely.  

[00:08:49] Matthew Holliday: No, I don't think we want to take the conversation that way. 

[00:08:52] Taylor: yeah,  

[00:08:54] Anastastia Maye: Like they can't differentiate the model, like acting for the camera versus like her, like they think like the models flirting with them. So they get even like flirtier and even more like unprofessional.  

[00:09:05] Taylor: Yeah. That's another thing is, um, don't ask me out for a drink after the shoot, especially if it's my first time shooting with you. That is just so. Weird and makes me uncomfortable and yeah, it's just not, not cool.  

[00:09:22] Anastastia Maye: Right. I had a guy the other day, I had to turn them down like five times for his offer to like, bring me to dinner. And you're one of the first things he asked me when the shoot started was if I was seeing anyone and, 

[00:09:34] Matthew Holliday: the answer's always yes. 

[00:09:36] Anastastia Maye: oh yeah.  

[00:09:36] Taylor: Yep.  

[00:09:38] Anastastia Maye: And like later on, he was like, you have really sexy legs. Can I touch them? 

[00:09:42] Taylor: Oh my  

[00:09:43] Anastastia Maye: And still, and he still touched them even though, like I told him no. So like that's, those are like just the typical behaviors. I think of  

[00:09:49] Matthew Holliday: regarding  

[00:09:50] EmoHippieChick: Yeah. And that's, that's when it went from. So, so asking you out for dinner once is weird and inappropriate, repeatedly asking you is creepy and then touching you when you said no. Is. That's stranger danger. No one should work with this guy level. 

[00:10:10] Taylor: probably  

[00:10:10] Matthew Holliday: on a second. 

[00:10:12] EmoHippieChick: that's the word I was looking for. It slipped my mind. 

[00:10:16] Anastastia Maye: Can you send me back the photos and they were like the greatest photos I've ever seen at. 

[00:10:20] Taylor: Oh my God. Yes. And you can tell when they're literally staring at. 

you and not even looking at the camera or like lighting or anything, they're just staring at you.  

[00:10:31] Matthew Holliday: I'm going to push back a tiny little bit on one specific piece of that. I certainly agree on the not consent thing. What if the guy does find you really attractive and would like to take you on a date and asks you one time? And if you say no, never mentioned it again. You mentioned that that was a little creepy and in some ways it is, yeah. I mean, it's, it's mostly a little creepy because of the nature of the relationship. Generally speaking, you know, if you're asking somebody on a date, you don't hire them first,  

[00:11:04] Taylor: Yeah, exactly.  

[00:11:06] EmoHippieChick: I mean, it's just like, you know, I used to work as a waitress and it is creepy when you are working and someone's trying to hit on you. It is a little creepy. It's a little weird, but it's not a, oh my God, this guy is the worst person ever. I'm kicking him out the restaurant. I never want to talk to him again, but it is, uh, that's just kind of inappropriate because they're working, they are doing their job or like asking a stripper out. 

Yeah. You're attracted to distributor. That's why you're there. But 

[00:11:37] Taylor: but you, you don't  

[00:11:38] Matthew Holliday: And if you're not attracted, you're on the wrong. 

[00:11:41] Taylor: Yeah.  

[00:11:41] EmoHippieChick: I would say it's, it's a different thing where, you know, like if, if you start to become friends with them outside of doing photo shoots and stuff, and then you want to ask them out. But again, like I said, like, I do understand asking them out once you can't help being attracted to who you're attracted to, but I'm just saying that the model's probably going to feel a little creepy. But you can ask once, but as long as you drop it immediately after she says, no, I don't think that stranger danger or anything 

[00:12:08] Taylor: Yeah, I agree with that. Um, 

Yeah. 

[00:12:12] Matthew Holliday: I want to go back to one thing you said, you mentioned a hotel shoots when you were talking about, uh, he was trying to arrange the shoot with you. Is there like a hierarchy of creepiest locations to shoot down to least creepy locations to shoot? I assume the least creepy is probably an actual studio, although usually, you know, that takes money to pay. Is there, is there like a hierarchy of what you think is when you get, oh, we're going to shoot at the train tracks or we're going to shoot in my abandoned farm basement. Ooh. 

[00:12:45] Taylor: I think the least creepy place is like outside somewhere, like in a park like that, where there  

[00:12:51] EmoHippieChick: a public  

[00:12:51] Taylor: Where there are people around like, um, like pretty much most of the fashion shoots I've done have been outside. And those are the ones I feel the most comfortable at.  

[00:13:02] Anastastia Maye: Right. 

[00:13:03] EmoHippieChick: Or at a group shoot where there are other models, other photographers, because even the worst reputation, photographers usually behave themselves in a group setting because you're, there are witnesses, 

[00:13:16] Taylor: exactly. Exactly.  

[00:13:21] Anastastia Maye: I feel like a lot of photographers, especially in the summer, um, want to do like nude shoots out in the woods and you know, obviously they want to find a place that's not frequented by a lot of people. If you're shooting. 

[00:13:33] EmoHippieChick: is understandable, but, 

[00:13:35] Anastastia Maye: So I don't do those kinds of shoots anymore, unless I'm really comfortable with the photographer. 

And I, like, I know we work well together and I can trust him. Cause like, otherwise, what are you going to do? Like in the middle of nowhere in the woods where no one can hear you. So that's, that's kind of creepy for me as like a first shoot location. 

[00:13:52] EmoHippieChick: or, I mean, you know, it is. Uh, a good idea to bring along an escort. Like no matter what location, but I know that sometimes that just isn't practical, especially when, like, I know you do the super regularly as your job. It's hard to acquire an escort every time, but definitely like, no, honestly, almost no matter how well I know a photographer, if we are going to be alone and naked in the woods somewhere, I kind of want someone else there. 

[00:14:20] Anastastia Maye: Yeah. That's fair. 

[00:14:21] Taylor: Oh, definitely. Yeah.  

[00:14:22] Matthew Holliday: we can talk more about escorts later. When we talk about what to do with protected. Let's get, let's get back to the other, other locations real quick before we go off on tangents. So woods alone, sketchy. 

[00:14:35] Taylor: Yes, definitely sketchy.  

[00:14:38] EmoHippieChick: Yeah. So photographers house, like when they say they have a studio and then you show up at the address and at someone's house, like, not that I'm like, you know, I have a little mini studio in my house, but I, I tell people.  

[00:14:51] Taylor: Yeah.  

[00:14:52] EmoHippieChick: don't say, come to my studio. Here's the address? I'm an oops. It's actually in the basement of my house and no one else is here.  

[00:14:59] Taylor: yeah.  

[00:15:00] EmoHippieChick: Just be upfront about it. It's fine. It's economical. It's helped save money. It's practical, but it's just weird to like glide over that fact that it's at your private residence. 

[00:15:14] Matthew Holliday: Um, 

[00:15:15] Anastastia Maye: Yeah. 

[00:15:17] Matthew Holliday: Anastasia is not going to comment on my house. She was here a couple of weeks ago. 

[00:15:23] Anastastia Maye: You told me it was your house. 

[00:15:25] Matthew Holliday: I did. I did. 

[00:15:26] Anastastia Maye: So that's. 

[00:15:28] Matthew Holliday: All right. And then hotel shoots are more or less sketchy than home. 

[00:15:33] Taylor: It depends on a lot of factors. First factor is the hotel, what kind of hotel is it like? Definitely. If it's like a seedy motel in a downtown area I've never been to before. That's, you know, another thing, that's the area. I usually bring someone with me to hotel shoots just in case overall less sketchy than say like the woods  

[00:16:04] Anastastia Maye: Yeah. 

[00:16:05] EmoHippieChick: Most of the time at a hotel, at least if you had to scream really loudly, someone would  

[00:16:09] Taylor: someone would hear you. Yes.  

[00:16:11] EmoHippieChick: Hopefully. 

[00:16:12] Anastastia Maye: Yeah. 

[00:16:13] Matthew Holliday: know hotels. Soundproofing. That's not good. 

[00:16:15] Taylor: Yes,  

[00:16:15] EmoHippieChick: Oh yeah. But then of course, like you said, it depends on the type of hotels. Some hotels are just used to that and that's, uh, that's concerning. 

[00:16:23] Taylor: Yes. Yes.  

[00:16:24] Matthew Holliday: You know, though, that's funny fan I were talking about, she wants to do like a, like a raver kid, wild night out shootout, and the CD hotel would be more appropriate for that than like a Hilton. 

[00:16:35] Taylor: Yeah.  

[00:16:36] EmoHippieChick: Oh yeah. But then you go with someone you trust, you don't go with a photographer that you're already feeling unsure about. 

[00:16:42] Matthew Holliday: fair. All right. So you're saying that the venue is more of a modifier for the feelings you already have. It's rarely like in and of itself. Well, unless they ask you to meet at a Starbucks and then they're going to drive you there, that's an 

[00:16:54] Taylor: Yeah. That's  

[00:16:55] EmoHippieChick: mean it does. Yeah. It does depend more on the individual photographer, bend the place. And then just the combination of the photographer photographer and the place can be important. 

[00:17:06] Anastastia Maye: also offering the drive you somewhere. Like if you're working with them for the first time that that can kind of sketch me out. Sometimes I don't accept rides from people. I don't know. And like, some of them will even like, act offended at that. Like why? Like, why. 

[00:17:21] Taylor: Oh my God. 

[00:17:22] EmoHippieChick: That's actually a huge red flag is when they get super offended, because that means that they were thinking about it. 

[00:17:28] Taylor: No, exactly. Like when you try to take steps to be like, okay, well, I'm going to try to protect myself in this way. And they're like, well, why, what do you think? I'm some kind of predator it's like, look then you might be.  

[00:17:42] Matthew Holliday: Protested too much. 

[00:17:44] EmoHippieChick: Exactly, exactly. But you know, like, um, I feel like I would, I would go with Anastasia to do a naked shoot in the woods and I wouldn't feel concerned, but like, but you know, some random guy that I don't know and makes weird comments about my body. No, I'm not going to go do a naked shoot in the woods with him.  

[00:18:02] Taylor: And that's the thing too, is just what the, the nature of a new or boudoir shoot you have to be, or generally you have to be like in a secluded area where you're kind of by yourselves because. People don't really like nudity in public, like in America  

[00:18:22] EmoHippieChick: fine. And other  

[00:18:23] Taylor: No, exactly. But yeah. So just the general nature of those kinds of shoots are you have to be, you know, alone with a photographer. 

So yes, definitely the, um, the vibe that the photographer gives off is way more important to me than the location.  

[00:18:41] Matthew Holliday: So it's interesting. I'm going to go back to what you said a minute ago about the location. I did have an interview with an Irish model a couple of months ago, who does need work and she poses on like the side of roads in Ireland and, you know, in Belgium and just in public places. And apparently people there just walked by and they like kind of notice and they're like, oh, photography. 

And then they move on. 

[00:19:03] Taylor: Yeah. America is different.  

[00:19:07] Anastastia Maye: Like cat calls and 

[00:19:08] Taylor: Oh, yeah.  

[00:19:09] EmoHippieChick: Oh, yeah. And you might even get arrested, so, 

[00:19:12] Taylor: that too. 

[00:19:13] Anastastia Maye: yeah, actually one photographer that I kind of wanted to mention who wasn't necessarily a creep, but just a complete asshole. Like we were doing an outdoor shoots and I didn't want to shoot nude there because there were children and elderly people and he was like, what? I thought you weren't shy. And I'm like, I'm not, I just want to do activities. then we went to another waterfall and then like another family came with children and I was already sitting there like naked. I was like covering up. It's like, why are you covering up? I'm like, you were literally giving no attention to my like comfort level and boundaries here. There are children here, sir.  

[00:19:50] Taylor: Yeah.  

[00:19:51] Anastastia Maye: Is the other extreme. If they give, like, they just like, don't care about your comfort level shooting in front of other people in public. 

[00:19:58] Matthew Holliday: Yeah. So speaking of in-person behavior, we kind of touched on that a couple of times now, but does anybody have any interesting stories of photographers behaving badly and. 

[00:20:09] EmoHippieChick: Yes. So, uh, I know like I've talked about this guy a lot with like my various model and photographer friends, but he was for me in a worst, which I am in a way, glad he was the worst. If that makes sense, because I know some people have it a lot worse, but he's still like, Ultimately on my Seafair blacklist, up with him and it was actually at a hotel room, but he had been re recommended to me by another photographer. 

I knew. And it was weird because when we had been messaging, scheduling the shoot, I literally had no real reason to feel sketched out by him. He didn't say anything inappropriate while I was talking to him, I just had bad vibes. I was like, it's a page shoot. He was recommended to me. He hasn't actually done anything. 

So I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt. And that was a huge mistake. He started off with trying to get me to drink alcohol. Um, which I know you wanted to talk about alcohol at shoots, but you know, I said, I said, no, thank you. You know, I'm going to be driving. He's like, oh, well I have to drive later too. 

I was like, okay, but I'm not, I don't want drink. He's like, are you sure? Cause I want to drink. I'd feel better if you are drinking. And I was like, oh boy, this is going to be a terrible shoots. Because it is one thing to offer, but it's a narrative like pressure. It's a huge red flag, but then, um, it just went up from there. 

We started out shooting fashion, but I knew we had discussed ahead of time that there was going to be some nude, but I clarified that I only do closed leg, artistic nudes. Um, but why was fully clothed? I was wearing a dress he had for the fashion segment and I'm posing and he just says, oh man, if you weren't married, I would be eating your pussy right now. 

And I was like, whoa,  

[00:21:59] Taylor: my God. 

[00:22:00] Matthew Holliday: wow.  

[00:22:00] EmoHippieChick: even naked right now. I'm fully clothed. What is wrong with you? 

[00:22:04] Matthew Holliday: I mean, technically, I guess he didn't go zero to 60 from his previous concepts. He went like 20 to 60. 

[00:22:11] EmoHippieChick: Right. I would just like, oh wow. I didn't even know what to say to that. And I'm alone in a hotel room with this guy. So I can't like punch him in the face. 

[00:22:21] Matthew Holliday: Yeah. And, and especially with paid work, you don't feel like you can just be like, well, I'm leaving and fuck you and fuck your money to, 

[00:22:28] Taylor: Yeah. 

That's the power dynamic that happens when you're in a page shoot, especially like you it's like if I do or say the wrong thing, I could, you know, have put in all this time effort and you know, whatever into the shoot that I'm not even gonna get it paid for. So  

[00:22:45] Anastastia Maye: that's what people have recommended to me to get your payment upfront. So if something like that happens, you can just dip out. 

[00:22:52] Matthew Holliday: yeah, it sounds to me like you're totally justified and tipping out if they start putting shit like that. 

[00:22:58] Taylor: yeah, like that, well, there was this one photographer I worked with who actually said. I'm paraphrasing, but something along the lines of, Oh, I can't stand this whole me too movement. No one wants to work with me anymore. I was like, I'm literally half naked in front of you, sir. Like what, what compelled you to, to say that to me? 

And yeah, I had to, that was like at the beginning of the shoot and I hadn't gotten paid yet. And I was like, well, well, here I am. So, yeah. And,  

[00:23:38] EmoHippieChick: just, wow.  

[00:23:39] Taylor: and that was, that was at his home studio too. And that wasn't the only thing he said. He, he like went on and on about like, he's like, oh, they're all these famous models. Won't work with me anymore. And I'm like, why are you telling me this? Are you like trying to make me feel uncomfortable? And like, you're going to attack me at any moment. 

Like, yeah.  

[00:23:58] Matthew Holliday: Just Just yeah, from my experience, if you hear one person complaining about somebody, like it might be fine, but once you start hearing a bunch of people complaining about somebody there's something  

[00:24:12] Taylor: Yes,  

[00:24:12] EmoHippieChick: Or someone complaining about how many people complain about him? I'm like, why are you advertising  

[00:24:18] Taylor: Literally. Yeah. He's like all these famous people won't work with me anymore. I'm like, oh,  

[00:24:23] EmoHippieChick: Oh, 

[00:24:25] Matthew Holliday: Yeah. 

[00:24:28] Anastastia Maye: I guess, so one of my creepiest, uh, experiences was, um, so I, I shot fashion. What? This one guy in Pittsburgh, just outdoors. It was fine. Like we were in public. Then we went to do at his home studio. Um, and like his behavior immediately switched when we got to his home studio, he started calling me baby repeatedly. 

Even when I told him not to. He asked me if he could kiss me. I said, no, he still went in to hug me. And he like, didn't pull away for a few seconds. So I very nearly need them in the balls at that point. And then he, um, he said, he'd pay me however much I wanted, if I would only spend the night with him. And he kept like, like asking the same question, he kept begging, like, I'll give you however much money you want, if you can just like spend the night with me. 

And like, yeah. At that point I was like actually feeling unsafe. So I would literally blocked him as I was pulling out of his driveway. 

[00:25:22] Matthew Holliday: That you know. All right. Question. How many times have you guys been mistaken for escorts? How many times have people offered that sort of thing? 

[00:25:32] Taylor: Oh, and my DMS all the time. Every day daily.  

[00:25:37] Anastastia Maye: In-person not as much like a few times, but yeah, a lot of DMS. 

[00:25:43] EmoHippieChick: Yeah in person, it's really mostly just people making very suggested comments or, you know, like the guy saying what he would do to me if only I wasn't married. Cause obviously that's the only thing holding me back.  

[00:25:55] Taylor: It's like, yeah. As if I wouldn't slap you across the face, if you tried, sir, like get away from  

[00:26:00] EmoHippieChick: Oh yeah. 

[00:26:03] Matthew Holliday: Interesting. Cause there is actually a, there's a website where a dude just messages, Instagram models offering them ridiculous amounts of money to come be an escort for a like middle Eastern Salton or royalty or something like that. And then he posts the conversations whenever they say yes. So like there's, there's people that are actively going out there trying to make it out. 

Like every Instagram model is actually an escort. 

[00:26:34] Taylor: Oh my God.  

[00:26:36] EmoHippieChick: mean, and of course there's nothing wrong with sex workers or escorts or anything, but I just think people need to stop confusing models with escorts are automatically assuming that just because someone goes out in lingerie or even does nude work, but that means that they're just down to screw anybody. 

Yeah. 

[00:26:57] Taylor: I mean, I also think that even if you're an escort, you've, the things are, you know, agreed to beforehand. It's it's you're you talk, even if I wasn't at escort, it's not acceptable for you to all this and just start doing things without consent, you  

[00:27:13] EmoHippieChick: Oh, a hundred percent. 

[00:27:14] Taylor: like the fact that I'm not an escort and you're doing these things is just, it just makes it that, that much worse 

[00:27:21] Matthew Holliday: yeah, now I wasn't, I wasn't quoting them. So apparently it's called tag the sponsor. Although when I just tried to go there and Malwarebytes told me there's a Trojan on their website, so I recommend not going there. Uh, I'm just, I'm just calling out that there are certain people that definitely seem to see this entire genre, like a cover for escorts. 

[00:27:41] Taylor: Yeah, there's actually a, I don't know if you guys know the comedian, uh, Chris D'Elia he's, he's gotten into some hot water in the past few years for, uh, inappropriate behavior, but he basically says I saw this clip of his, um, And he's like, oh, you're, you're posting your ass on Instagram. You're hookin. It's like, no, you need to stop confusing. 

The two, like, just, just because I'm, you know, modeling doesn't mean that I'm escorting. 

[00:28:13] EmoHippieChick: And do you know, even, even women or, or men or whoever who aren't, you know, models, but like to post selfies of their ass or tits or whatever, it's like, feel free. It's still not, this is just whole, I guess we're getting more into the, the me too movement kind of stuff, but how you're dressed doesn't mean you want to be treated a certain way. 

[00:28:33] Taylor: Exactly. Yes. Remember the human is what I always say. Everyone is human. 

[00:28:41] Anastastia Maye: I like that. Yeah. Also have noticed if you like. You know, kink type shoots, like BDSM, Shibari stuff. Like if you bring that up with someone or they start talking to you about it, it's like, am I experienced? They assume that you're easier because you're like in that kind of community. So like I was talking about that stuff with like one guy. 

So then he, I guess, assumed that I would be okay with him showing me his nude photos of himself. 

[00:29:10] Taylor: Um,  

[00:29:13] EmoHippieChick: I do know that the lines tend to get blurred more for fetish and kink work, even though like just the whole, like, if you actually are part of the fetish community, you should know that no matter what you're doing. Is still the number one thing, making sure to ever person is comfortable and okay with whatever's going on. 

Even, even in situations where it's like, you know, Dom sub stuff and you know, you have to obey whatever I tell you to do, but there's still already that agreement in place, but that's what your relationship's going to be. You don't just like put that out of nowhere and start treating someone a certain way. 

[00:29:52] Taylor: Yes exactly.  

[00:29:54] Matthew Holliday: Out of curiosity, what type of shoot tends to get the most creeps? Is it kink shoots? Is it nude, shoots? Is it erotic shoots or is it fashion? Probably not fashion, right. 

[00:30:06] EmoHippieChick: No, except for the, the weirdness with the wanting to eat my pussy Minoan fully clothed. Like that was, that was a, a rare occurrence, but yeah, it's usually any kind of nude work. Um,  

[00:30:18] Taylor: even the Duar.  

[00:30:20] EmoHippieChick: Yeah, it depends like, yeah, even just wearing lingerie or stuff can just set people off in a weird way.  

[00:30:26] Taylor: I even had a fashion shoot, um, last week where, I mean, he didn't, again, the line is so blurry, but like, he didn't say anything like, you know, over the line, but it was very like, oh, like you look so, so good. Like, like you're just. Saying, emphasizing, Lord's saying it way too much saying like, you look sexy saying like there, if you want to give encouragement, say things like, oh, you're doing great. 

Or, oh, I love that pose. Don't be like, you're sexy. Like you're gorgeous. Like we, I get it. Thank you. That's why I'm here. Like, yes.  

[00:31:10] Matthew Holliday: So where's the line there in terms of encouragement like, or is there no line, like, just don't comment on at all, take your pictures. 

[00:31:18] Taylor: yeah, no, I would say if you want to get feedback, like I said, just say something along the lines of you're doing great. I love that pose.  

[00:31:25] EmoHippieChick: Yeah, hold that 

[00:31:26] Taylor: Yes. hold that pose. 

like you know, that looks great. The way you're doing that. Like just  

[00:31:33] Anastastia Maye: specifically comment on like, oh, your ass or your tips are like looking great.  

[00:31:37] Taylor: Yes. Yeah, Yeah. 

[00:31:41] Matthew Holliday: Gotcha. 

[00:31:41] EmoHippieChick: mean, sometimes like you do have to use specific languages specially in erotic shoots, but yeah. Don't comment on it. Like if you're like, oh, you know, turn, you know, turn your butt up a little bit or whatever, like you have to give direction sometimes. So don't be like, oh yeah, it's so hot when you do that. 

Oh my God.  

[00:31:57] Taylor: Yeah, exactly.  

[00:31:58] EmoHippieChick: I think one of the hardest ones to really establish the lines with our Shibari shoots or any kind of rope play because the model is tied up and can't defend herself or himself, I suppose, because like, let's be real, like male models can absolutely be assaulted and abused to. 

[00:32:17] Matthew Holliday: Yeah. 

[00:32:17] Anastastia Maye: Right. Like, I'll always bring an escort with me to a first time rope shoot, like with working with someone new or else like, oh, we'll have to have like, worked with them several times and like trust them and have gotten good, um, references to like go by myself and do that because it is putting you in a really vulnerable position. 

[00:32:33] Matthew Holliday: We need to move on. If we're going to hit all these questions,  

[00:32:37] Taylor: Okay.  

[00:32:38] Matthew Holliday: I have some pretty famous photographers that I'd like to use as examples that I think can generate some discussion because of the specifics of what happened. The first one is Terry Richardson, really famous photographer. I know he shot Miley Cyrus a couple years ago. 

He has a very specific kind of style. His fashion stylist, the direct in front flash with the strong shadow behind you. He has had many allegations of sexual assault and lewd behavior. But if you look at his work, that's not the fashion specific work. There's lots of pictures. How did I describe it? His pictures are like he's documenting his rock and roll life and he spends a lot of time in them naked. 

There's a lot of kind of lewd and sexual content and the pictures. my question here is around despite consent consent should obviously be given, but like if you looked at somebody with a portfolio like that, is that even a shoot that you would accept or is that the kind of behavior you would expect from somebody whose portfolio involves lots of touching and lots of sexual acts? 

[00:33:43] EmoHippieChick: Well, I guess, like you said, it's consent. I would talk to them about it beforehand. Like if someone wants to do a photo shoot with me and I look at her portfolio and it's not the type of work I usually do. I say, just so you know, I don't do this type of work, but do you still want to do XYZ with me? And if they say yes, then that's on them. 

That's not me expecting that. They should still act in a certain way after I explicitly told them not to. 

[00:34:11] Taylor: Yeah, I think with shoots like that, Um, 

where you're literally documenting sex acts, um, there needs to be a contract signed beforehand, a very clear, a very, um, you know, expansive contract that the model, uh, can review and look into and know what they're signing. I know what they're agreeing to because you can't just, I mean, I reading the stories of models who, you know, were assaulted by him. 

They were, they were at a shoot for something else. They were at a shoot. Just maybe it might've been a nude shoot, but there, there was no agreement of, oh, I'm going to suck your deck or how I'm going to have sex with you. If it was something and he turned it into something else.  

[00:35:02] Matthew Holliday: your point is absolutely correct about, uh, you know, if it's a fashion shoe, then obviously nothing like that would be expected and that's definitely assault or just, I dunno, there's, there's a photographer that I used to really admire. And then he started posting on his portfolios. Like he would like put his hand in the picture and like touch their foot or touch their leg and it just got super creepy. 

But then thinking about that from the model's perspective, like Hmm. 

[00:35:28] Anastastia Maye: Like I know of these accounts that like, you're talking about where his like, hand is always on the models, but, or like under her chin or something like that. And like, personally I'm, I would be turned off by that. Cause I don't like doing the POV types of shoots, but I mean, if obviously if the model consents and they talk about it extensively beforehand, what exactly they're going to do? 

What poses they're going to shoot then I guess that's fine. 

[00:35:52] EmoHippieChick: Yeah, but sometimes what happens is it's just, you know, a quote unquote, regular nude shoe or Buddha WashU or whatever. And then while taking pictures, he just puts his hand on you. And a lot of the times, especially if it's, uh, an inexperienced model, she won't want to say anything, even though she's uncomfortable. 

Because partly because she's worried that she's, oh, she maybe she's overreacting. Like, it depends on like other experiences she's had and what people have told her or what if I tell him to stop, but then things get worse or, or maybe I should've just expected this, but no, like the answer is like, it always needs to be consensual. 

No one should touch you without asking or discussing it beforehand. Even like, oh, one of my favorites is when they have to adjust something, right. Oh, let me fix your bra strap. It's like, I will fix that. And if I can't, I will ask you for, to help. Like, I will specifically ask photographers to help me with something sometimes. 

And I'll be like, I promise it's okay. This is me verbally saying it's all right for you to do  

[00:36:54] Taylor: Yes. Yeah.  

[00:36:55] EmoHippieChick: Yeah. 

[00:36:56] Anastastia Maye: That's a recurring issue that I've had like photographers, always trying to adjust my clothing without asking. And like at first I would just kind of let them, cause again, I was like, am I overreacting? Like, I don't want to like upset them, but like at this point I'm like, I noticed, I know I can do this. 

Just tell me what you want to fix. Like, there was even one instance where a guy was like, oh, your thongs kind of crooked. And he goes to the front of my song to like adjust it. So yeah, I feel like they use that as like trying to be like, seem like they're being helpful, but really it's just kind of like assaulting. 

[00:37:29] Taylor: Yeah, exactly.  

[00:37:31] Matthew Holliday: Second example, I have Emily rata. Pretty famous after doing that video, but she started off as a fashion and a nude model and apparently shot with a pretty famous photographer named Jonathan later leader. I don't know how to pronounce his name. She took a train over there. She drove, he drove her to his place. 

She stayed overnight. He gave her lots of wine. I think, believe she said at one point she said she never signed a model release, or she signed a model release just for the pictures to be used in a magazine. And during the evening he was, you know, getting a little creepy and he was pushing her boundaries and then they were hanging out on the couch and he was apparently like massaging her feet or something. 

And she was a little bit drunk and just laying there and he assaulted her the next day. He acted like nothing happened the next day, drove her off. And then there's a whole separate conversation about what he did with the pictures. But we're not covering that today. So some of these stories include alcohol and other drugs used during modeling shoot. 

Where do you guys stand on and toxicants and shoots. 

[00:38:41] Taylor: Unless, I mean, literally the only time I would ever drink or do anything during issue is if like I have a, um, like one or two photographers who I'm actually friends with, who like I would do that outside of a shoot with any photographer that I haven't, you know, That I don't have a friendship with. 

Absolutely. For me, absolutely not. I think it just is a recipe for trouble.  

[00:39:12] EmoHippieChick: Yeah. The only time I have had alcohol or weed or whatever at a photo shoot was when I'm with. girlfriends that we all hang out and drink outside of photo shoots. Like multiple of us are both models and photographers. So then we just kind of Dick around and get naked and take pictures of each other. 

And it's hilarious, but we all know each other. We're, we're all buddies, you know, like with the example I gave earlier, if the guy trying to push alcohol on me, especially on a one-on-one shoot, I just think it is really dangerous. Of course it is absolutely always the assaulters a fault, not the victim's fault, but it does make you in a more vulnerable state to be under the influence of any kind of drugs or alcohol. 

And I've seen stuff where people go to like model shootout, parties, wherever. Does drugs and drinks. And then most of the time at those things, the next day, at least one person has been assaulted. And it's like, I just think it's already such a dangerous field for us to be in and we don't need to make it worse for ourselves. 

But again, like wherever you are in the abbreviated or sober, if you're naked or if you're clothed, if someone assaults you, they're the bad guy here. 

[00:40:31] Taylor: Yeah. It's never your fault, even if you weren't drinking, it's  

[00:40:34] EmoHippieChick: Oh yeah, no, absolutely not. 

[00:40:37] Taylor: it's just, I am more able to defend myself if something happens, if I'm so.  

[00:40:43] EmoHippieChick: And it is a tactic that photographers will use, especially on younger, less experienced models is to try and get them to drink. And again, like, I don't even mind, this is the whole, you can ask once, but then you have to stop. I don't mind if a photographer is like, do you want a glass of wine? But when I say, no, I'm under, they're trying to push you. 

You have to wonder why they're trying to push you to drink. 

[00:41:06] Anastastia Maye: Right now that's, that's always a huge red flag. Like I remember one photographer offered me a drink and. I said no, but like I gave like an explanation. I'm like, no, I like, I don't drink at shoots. I only drank like with my friends on the weekends or something like that. And he's like, what? Like, we're not friends like trying to like make  

[00:41:26] Taylor: No.  

[00:41:27] Anastastia Maye: general roll during shoots is like, I don't accept any kind of drinks unless it's bottled water. 

That's sealed because you're also never know. 

[00:41:36] EmoHippieChick: I have to say I'm, I'm paranoid. Even if it's sealed, I'm always like, because I watch all these, you know, like crime movies and shows and stuff. I'm like, what if they took, you know, a really fine needle and put it through to cat and put something in there. So,  

[00:41:49] Taylor: I always bring my own water and, and like even photographers who I know, like when, like I've talked to people, who've worked with them and they were great. And if we're, even if I've worked with them before, I'm like, until they work with you, at least like three, four times, I'm bringing my own water. 

And that's that?  

[00:42:10] EmoHippieChick: It's just better safe. Sometimes I do feel like I'm a paranoid, crazy person, but then like times where, when I ignore my instincts, like with, with the one guy I mentioned before, I always regret ignoring my instincts. 

[00:42:23] Matthew Holliday: Um, 

[00:42:24] Anastastia Maye: listen to your gut. It's usually right. 

[00:42:25] EmoHippieChick: Yeah. Any of it's not no big loss. Really. 

[00:42:29] Taylor: Yeah. Like you said, better safe than sorry.  

[00:42:31] Matthew Holliday: what do you do to protect yourself from this kind of behavior? I know we've talked a little bit about escorts. We talked a little bit about blacklists, so let's dive into those first. If you decided you wanted to have an escort come with you, what is the best or easiest way of making that happen? 

[00:42:48] Anastastia Maye: Well first just ask the photographer, like, like I'll be bringing an escort. Are you okay with that? And even if you're not planning on bringing an escort, you kind of want to hear their answer because if 

[00:42:58] EmoHippieChick: always ask. 

[00:42:59] Taylor: yeah.  

[00:43:00] Anastastia Maye: you say, if they say no, then just don't go. It's a red flag. 

[00:43:03] Taylor: Yes.  

[00:43:06] Matthew Holliday: or if he changes the venue, he's like, oh, but let's do a hotel shoot instead. You're like, Hmm. 

[00:43:13] Taylor: Yeah. Yeah.  

[00:43:14] EmoHippieChick: Oh, yeah. And then also when they say stuff like, oh, no boyfriends or no husbands, it's like, no, like I understand you can say, you know, as long as they don't interfere, if the shoot too much, but to just straight up, be like, oh, I never allow boyfriends or husbands. That's a pretty big red flag. Or some people are like, no men. 

That's a huge red flag. If they're like, no other men are allowed at this photo shoot. It's like, oh, okay. 

[00:43:40] Taylor: Yeah.  

[00:43:41] Anastastia Maye: Female escorts, because I don't want any creepy men on my property. 

[00:43:46] Taylor: It's like, dude. Okay.  

[00:43:49] Matthew Holliday: you don't, you mean you don't want two creepy men on your property? 

[00:43:54] EmoHippieChick: Matthew, you have it just on the dot there. 

[00:43:57] Taylor: exactly.  

[00:43:59] Matthew Holliday: What's interesting to me about that is while that doesn't necessarily suggest danger, because if he, if he was going to do something like kidnap you, he wouldn't want any escorts, but the fact that he doesn't want a boyfriend or a husband probably means that he's going to be asking you to do stuff that he thinks you would be embarrassed to be doing in front of them. 

So probably more boundary pushing, still not kosher, but like, that's what that applies to me. 

[00:44:24] EmoHippieChick: Or they feel sexually threatened by having a never man around they're like, oh, she'll be more likely to be into me if she doesn't have a number guy they're distracting her. 

[00:44:34] Matthew Holliday: I'm the best option she has. 

[00:44:37] Taylor: Yeah.  

[00:44:37] EmoHippieChick: Right. I mean, she's obviously going to be just so desperate, but I mean, I agree that sometimes it, it doesn't necessarily mean that a photographer is up to no good. If he doesn't want an escort or a male escort or whatever, but it's something that is just so well known as community that that's a red flag, but that's just something you need to find a way. 

To work around to make the model comfortable, because that should be the number one priority is making sure that the models comfortable, because if the model feels uncomfortable, you're not going to get good pictures. 

[00:45:08] Taylor: Exactly. Yup. 

[00:45:10] Anastastia Maye: Also with that one particular instance, I got like big human trafficky vibes from the guy, because like he was talking to me all about this huge diamond production or diamond, like business that he owns and like how he's like mining all of these diamonds in Australia. And I'm going to be like the center of like a jewelry billboard and like all these like stupid, like things that probably would never actually happen like the too good to be true type thing. 

So like that kind of made 

[00:45:36] EmoHippieChick: too good to be true. 

[00:45:37] Anastastia Maye: bring another female. He might want to do something else with like the both of us. Yeah. 

[00:45:46] Matthew Holliday: Escorts. I know, for example, when I shot with melancholic, her escort was her boyfriend. Did they travel? Like they just, they just traveled together all the time. Do you, if you don't have a boyfriend or you're not traveling with somebody that can be an escort, do you pay them? Because you're getting paid to be at the shoot and the ma and the escort is just volunteering their time. 

How does that work?  

[00:46:08] Taylor: Um, the escorts that I've brought have been friends. And I'll usually like buy them lunch or something.  

[00:46:19] Matthew Holliday: That's yeah, I'm just thinking melancholy ex-boyfriend or I don't know. NFL's husband or partner or boyfriend or what? Like he was working on his own business in the other room. He had his laptop and was like doing stuff. So it wasn't like he was just sitting there staring or being bored or anything. 

Like they were doing stuff they escort doesn't necessarily have to be watching the whole time. 

[00:46:37] Taylor: Exactly. yeah,  

[00:46:38] EmoHippieChick: a security measure. 

[00:46:40] Taylor: Yes. 

[00:46:41] Anastastia Maye: Right.  

[00:46:41] Matthew Holliday: they have to say, if you're bringing a gun and some pepper spray and  

[00:46:46] Taylor: I actually bring pepper spray everywhere. So I 

[00:46:51] Matthew Holliday: I do too, actually  

[00:46:52] Taylor: I always have that just in case.  

[00:46:54] Matthew Holliday: I actually went and got trained and got my concealed carry permit. And then the more I thought about it and the more I was like, you know, I don't actually want to shoot anybody. I've actually, I've actually gone to just bringing in pepper spray. 

[00:47:06] Taylor: yep.  

[00:47:07] Anastastia Maye: Yeah. 

[00:47:08] EmoHippieChick: Yeah, pepper spray is good. It's good to remember. Like, if you have keys on you, that keys hurt. If you jammed them into someone's eyeball, um, rings. If you're wearing rings, it hurts more when you punch people 

[00:47:20] Taylor: Anything can be a weapon.  

[00:47:24] EmoHippieChick: and don't be afraid to kick someone in the nuts, just cause it's normally bad form, bad form. Doesn't matter if someone's trying to hurt you. 

[00:47:31] Taylor: exactly. Yes.  

[00:47:33] Anastastia Maye: Even if we can bring an escort, always let someone know your location, like. 

[00:47:38] EmoHippieChick: Oh yeah. 

[00:47:38] Taylor: Oh,  

[00:47:38] Anastastia Maye: W when we get there, give him an update halfway through, let them know when you're leaving. Um, and I think I, um, I talked about this on the last podcast I was on. I have an app called life 360. My boyfriend also has the same app, so he can always see my location at any point, which is like, I, it makes me feel a lot better during shoots. 

And it also has like an SOS feature where I'm, if you hit it, it'll call the cops for you like discreetly and it'll alert. Um, the other person who's like on this app. So I think that's also. 

[00:48:13] Matthew Holliday: I imagine telling somebody that you're getting fives about, that you just called the cops is probably, you probably want to just try and play it. Cool and quiet until the 

cops get there.  

[00:48:21] Taylor: yeah. 

[00:48:23] Matthew Holliday: Yeah. You don't want to warn people. I'm going to call the cops because then they're going to try and stop you if they were actually going to do something. 

[00:48:31] EmoHippieChick: exactly. But yes, I agree. Like having someone or multiple believable know where you're going to be. Give them the name of the person you're shooting with like, sure. It might be a fake name that we said something, give them the social media info. Like let them know what time you're going to be done. 

Like all that. That's just, uh, just an extra security measure there, for sure. 

[00:48:53] Matthew Holliday: blacklist. It's definitely come up a couple of times on the podcast that certain areas, certain regions, the models would get together and maintain regional blacklists of the photographers in the area. I know that you've mentioned at least one of you guys mentioned that you have like a personal blacklist. 

How do you guys share that information? How can a new, more importantly, how can a new model get access to that information? 

[00:49:18] EmoHippieChick: So I think if you're a new model, it's important to find other models in your area to talk to you. So, I mean, just besides the fact of, if a photographer wants to work with. Find models who have worked with him to talk to, but then like if you want their help finding a safety list that they can join. I know there are a lot of different Facebook groups for different areas that you can look into or become friends with another model, and she can invite you into a group. 

But I think it is really important having that community, um, of even if you still decide to work with a photographer, at least you have all the information and can take proper precautions.  

[00:49:58] Taylor: Yes. And I, so I actually acquired a blacklist, but basically from what I understand, if anybody knows that you share this blacklist, um, you know, there's a risk of legal action from people on the blacklist. So it's like this very awful. You know, balance and dance that we're kind of forced to do, or we can't openly be like, Hey, here's this black list of people who you shouldn't work with. 

Um, but Yeah. definitely. I think finding other models in the area and, and just talking to them is the best way to go about it. But yeah, it's, it's unfortunate that like a list made it made for models. Safety can't be like openly shared. 

[00:50:48] EmoHippieChick: I mean, you could get sued for, you know, libel or slander or whatever. Or if it, if, if just an unrelated photographer hears that you've said something and you're like, oh, well I don't want to work with her because what if he says something about me on that list?  

[00:51:01] Taylor: Yup.  

[00:51:04] EmoHippieChick: Or, oh, I'm friends with that photographer. I know he would never do that. 

[00:51:08] Taylor: exactly.  

[00:51:10] Matthew Holliday: Uh, because people always act the same towards everybody. Right.  

[00:51:12] Taylor: Oh yeah, yeah. Totally. Yes. Yes.  

[00:51:16] Anastastia Maye: And also there are a lot of like good Facebook groups for like, uh, safety networks. Um, so I know there's one for this general area of Mid-Atlantic safety network. I think it's called, um, 

[00:51:26] Matthew Holliday: Yeah, I think ALA just mentioned that the other day he talked to ALA on Wednesday. 

[00:51:29] EmoHippieChick: It's a great group, but we, there there's definitely drama that goes on in that group sometimes. And sometimes we have to kick people out. Unfortunately, if we feel people are unsafe, like the number one rule of the safety groups is usually you can't go talking to photographers about what's said in those  

[00:51:47] Taylor: Yes, exactly.  

[00:51:49] EmoHippieChick: because you could put people in danger. 

[00:51:51] Taylor: And conversely, I think it's very, you shouldn't judge a model who works with a photographer who may have, you know, whatever a sketchy past, because that model might need that money to feed herself. Like I never judge someone who I, all I say is just be as careful as you possibly can.  

[00:52:15] Matthew Holliday: Well, what's interesting to me too, is just, is even, is it a photographer that behaves poorly? Like, all right, let's go back to those famous examples. Terry Richardson, lots of models came up and were like, no, he was fine. These photographers that are behaving badly or not necessarily like, if he's an asshole, he's probably being an asshole to everybody. 

But if he's assaulting people, he's probably not assaulting everybody. 

[00:52:41] EmoHippieChick: If you're smart, you gather up a good rapport. Like the most famous people you act well with these people will trust their word about it. And then it's usually the newer and less experienced models or actresses or whatever that they'll prey upon because they know no one will believe them. If they say something 

[00:53:00] Matthew Holliday: and, and also they have such a cache from working with other people. The other people, the new model must be like, oh, this, this must be how this works. All those other people must have done this to. 

[00:53:12] EmoHippieChick: I mean, that's, that's really another thing is I always tell people just because you've seen, I've worked with a photographer, always ask me personally, one-on-one about it because sometimes I can't publicly say stuff sometimes I'm like, you know, I very, you know, I just don't want to go to court about it. 

Or, you know, maybe that photographer has photos of me, but I don't want him just sharing with everybody. You know, that I'm going to still be polite with them. But if you talk to me, I'm going to be like, I really don't recommend you work with this guy. 

[00:53:41] Taylor: exactly. Yes.  

[00:53:44] Matthew Holliday: How often do you guys get models, messaging new about photographers? Does it happen enough or should it be happening more? 

[00:53:52] EmoHippieChick: I'd love for it to happen more. Bother me anytime about a photographer asking me questions.  

[00:53:56] Taylor: I get discouraged because I am a re like a new model. You know, I reach out to a lot of models and just don't get a response back. And like, I get, if you have a bigger following, like it's harder to, to look in your DMS, but like, I don't know if, if I message you asking about, you know, the rapport of a photographer, it takes like two seconds to respond back and be like, Hey, he was great. 

Or, Hey, I don't recommend him. Just, you know,  

[00:54:28] EmoHippieChick: Oh, yeah, no, I think it it's really everyone's responsibility to look out for each other here, because again, this is already such a complicated and sometimes dangerous field to work in. And we really just need to look out for each other, put each other first and just take that extra time, no matter, you know, how many followers or whatever, you have to make sure that the little guys don't get stumped. 

[00:54:52] Taylor: definitely. Yes.  

[00:54:53] Anastastia Maye: Yeah. I always love it when people come to me for references and sometimes they're like, well, I don't mean to be a bother. I'm like, you're not at all. Like please like ask me all, all your questions. Actually yesterday, I got like a person asking about a certain photographer and I told her, I don't really recommend this guy. 

Cause he like shows up late. He's super flaky and he's just not professional. And 

[00:55:15] EmoHippieChick: Oh my God. He was such a douche. 

[00:55:18] Anastastia Maye: because like, after I told her that, uh, I didn't straight up say don't work with him, but I was like, I don't really recommend him. Um, so then he like messaged me and he was like, is there a problem? Like, cause all of the, um, models who have like given you as a reference for all of them are turning me down with an attitude too, even though like she never worked with 

[00:55:40] EmoHippieChick: I've never even worked with him. And he sent me a message, like accusing me of shit, talking him. I'm like, dude, I don't even really know you.  

[00:55:48] Taylor: Who are you?  

[00:55:50] EmoHippieChick: Yeah, exactly. 

[00:55:51] Anastastia Maye: it's not going to make me recommend you any more to people after this. But no, I just, I just ended up telling him the truth. I'm like, well this is what I told him. I told them. Just kind of flaky, you get to all of the shoots that we did, you were an hour late and I didn't find that professional. And he, you know, of course he had an attitude. 

He was like, okay, fine. I'll drop it. 

[00:56:12] EmoHippieChick: well, yeah, I mean, you know, like, and he conceded that too, but it's not like you're telling people don't work with him. He's not safe to work with he's on a blacklist or anything else. You're just like, this was my experience. Do what you will. 

[00:56:25] Anastastia Maye: Right. 

[00:56:26] Matthew Holliday: interesting because on one hand you do want to like, from the actual bad ones, you want to warn the people away, but then if you do that too much and they twig on it and they're like, oh, I'm not going to use them as a reference anymore. Hmm. Any other ways to protect yourself? You mentioned bringing pepper, spray weapons, even makeshift weapons. 

Uh, any other thoughts? We talked about an app that tracks you. We talked about telling people where you're going. 

[00:56:54] EmoHippieChick: Checking into blacklists. Of course, we talked about that too. And I mean, for me, my number one is still, I think I said before is suggest, fall, follow your instincts. Our instincts are there for a reason. Sometimes it feels silly to be like, well, I just have bad voodoo vibes about someone, but again, like, unless it's, I don't know a ridiculous opportunity, you know, but how much are you missing out on like you're missing out on one paid gig. 

If you listen to those feelings, the worst case. Scenario is that you're missing out on a couple of hundred bucks that's case scenario is you just stopped yourself from getting assaulted or murdered or whatever else. So I think that's a pretty fair trade-off. 

[00:57:38] Anastastia Maye: Right. Yeah. Now there are a lot of times I listen to my instincts when they were like no particular reason that like, I shouldn't work with someone, but I just like felt weird vibes. And then I learned a whole bunch of like bad stuff they've done to other models after the fact. So,  

[00:57:53] Taylor: Yep. Yes.  

[00:57:57] Matthew Holliday: All right. So what do you do if something like this happens? I know that you guys don't necessarily have any personal experience with this, but if somebody, if a photographer does behave inappropriately and maybe it doesn't rise to the level of go to the cops, well, you know, there's definitely things where you would go to the cops first, but do you, do you go out and tell everybody, tell all your friends, tell all the models, 

[00:58:23] Anastastia Maye: I would 

[00:58:24] Matthew Holliday: obviously not work with them anymore?  

[00:58:27] Taylor: Uh, yeah, if I was like, actually like sexually assaulted, I would probably press charges. Um, but you know, it D I guess it does depend on who the photographer is as well,  

[00:58:41] Matthew Holliday: let's, let's, let's take it down a notch. I, my assumption is that if it's worth pressing charges as an you're assaulted, versus some of the let's let's, let's stick with kind of the left. Less, uh, less  

[00:58:55] Taylor: Oh, just like, kind of touching without permission, like,  

[00:58:58] EmoHippieChick: being really creepy, 

[00:58:59] Taylor: okay. Yeah. Yeah,  

[00:59:00] Matthew Holliday: no, 

because there's  

not  

[00:59:02] EmoHippieChick: Oh, I tell all my 

[00:59:03] Matthew Holliday: answer is press charges and there's no discussion. 

[00:59:06] EmoHippieChick: Yeah. 

[00:59:06] Taylor: Now. Yeah. I tell, uh, yes, I tell everybody.  

[00:59:11] Anastastia Maye: All your friends posted on the safety networks, uh, blast them on social media. If you feel like the situation calls for it. 

[00:59:19] EmoHippieChick: Sometimes I'm more hesitant to publicly blast on social media, because again, you can just get in all kinds of trouble for, for libel and other stuff, but sometimes it's worth it. If you feel just like too many people keep getting taken advantage of by someone, then it's okay to just be like, you know what, screw my reputation or whatever. 

Like, it's more important to keep everyone else safe, but most of the time it's, it is kind of enough just to talk within the bottle network. I know there are a lot of photographers that it's just kind of like known in the area, not to work with them because of word of mouth that just, everyone just kind of knows about certain guys. 

And that is from, like I said, word of mouth and talking to your friends who talk to their friends and posting in the, the safety network groups and stuff like that. Of course, some people are so willing to work with people no matter what, as long as they get paid. And that's their prerogative that at least they know, like I said, I think before, I always, you could take precautions. 

Like maybe if you don't normally bring an escort, you know, to definitely bring an escort. If you're working with this. 

[01:00:23] Taylor: Exactly. Yes. Yeah.  

[01:00:25] Matthew Holliday: Yeah. Which goes to kind of what we're talking about before. Like they're just an asshole or they make suggestive comments, an escort would cut that off, especially if they happen to really be talented to 

[01:00:37] EmoHippieChick: that's always hard too is oh, like, oh, their work is so good, but don't be a Dick. 

[01:00:45] Matthew Holliday: that. We don't finish things off with a bad taste in our mouth. We've mostly been talking about bad photographer behavior. Do you guys have any examples of some times when a photographer was just an amazing artistic or an amazing human partner?  

[01:01:01] Taylor: Uh, I have, uh, quite a few great, Uh, 

experiences. Um, my first ever shoot, um, was a group shoot group nude shoot outdoors, and the photographer was Raphael avail of, of Joel. was just such a sweet human and the fact that everybody was naked made me feel so comfortable. Like I'm naked, but so are 14 other people here. 

So, um, and yeah, he was just so professional, like the epitome of professionalism, great direction. I think that's another thing too, is I, I do know my angles for the most part, but feedback is always appreciated because most of the time, I, I can't see exactly what I'm looking like. So when a photographer says like, oh, move your arm this way. 

I can't see, you know, your hand or like just little feedback, stuff like that. I love love that.  

[01:02:09] EmoHippieChick: It feels more like a collaboration rather than you just having to do stuff. 

[01:02:13] Taylor: Exactly. Yes.  

[01:02:16] Anastastia Maye: mean, I feel like the best shoots are near the ones where the details of the shoe, as well as like all the boundaries and comfort levels are fully discussed prior to the shoot and like where the photographer has a clear artistic vision, but is also really open to, um, the input from the.  

[01:02:31] Taylor: Yes.  

[01:02:32] Anastastia Maye: I've worked with like countless photographers who are like that. 

Um, so I mean, there's always a balance. Yeah. There are definitely quite a few, like I worked with, um, this one, uh, this past weekend and M lens. So she was super nice. We like discussed pretty extensively prior to the shoot. She would send me like example pictures for like the style and the wardrobe she was going for. 

Um, and you know, she wouldn't always ask me for input on her edits, um, after the shoot and like asked me what I thought of it and what she should change and et cetera. So I liked that when they like ask for your feedback and they're very open to your vision as well. 

[01:03:11] Taylor: Yes, because it really should be a collaboration. It's not just, you know, the photographer, just the model doing it. You guys should be creating the art together.  

[01:03:21] EmoHippieChick: the most fun is when both people are excited, but sometimes if you will, one person is excited and another is not. And that just shows in the final product. If somebody wasn't feeling it. So it's important. Like even for, if it's a paid shoe, obviously you have to do what the person paying you wants you to do, but it's still good to find your own kind of passion with it. 

And like have them let you add your own little creative flair into it. Even if it is a page shoot. 

[01:03:51] Matthew Holliday: So it's interesting. You mentioned that the collaboration on like the editing. Generally speaking, when you're getting paid for shoot, we it's typically hourly if the photographer consults with you afterwards and like, Hey, here's some proofs from the shoot. What do you think? Like, how would you want them to collaborate afterwards? 

Is that further paid hourly? Is that just like, here's a couple of pictures. Tell me what you think of them. If you've got any thoughts or do you want them to like call and do a screen share? Like how does that hurt? I'm just, I mean, cause my, and my mental model is, you know, the model comes, she gets paid for the time where she's there, she leaves and then the photographer edits. 

And then I don't know. 

[01:04:33] EmoHippieChick: I do feel mostly the collaboration is before and during the shoot. And then the editing really just depends on the individual photographers, editing style and stuff. And, um, again, like, as I do photography, as well as modeling, I think one time, mostly I had someone. Not like the edits I did, but I had paid them. 

I still tried to, I want to make people happy. That's why I like taking pictures of people so they can look at it and love their pictures. But like, I think I edited it once or twice. And then he still didn't like them. And I was like, you're going to have to pay me if you want me to edit these again, because I paid you. 

[01:05:12] Anastastia Maye: To clarify. That's not something I'm expecting from page shoots. Like, um, I'm not even expecting to get edits in general from a page 

[01:05:19] EmoHippieChick: Oh yeah. 

[01:05:20] Anastastia Maye: when I do. And when they ask for my feedback, like those, I'm just saying those are my favorite kinds of shoots because I feel more included in like my opinion is valued more. 

[01:05:30] Matthew Holliday: All right. Well, we're just about out of time. So let's go ahead and close this thing down. I'm going to go under a burse alphabetical order for the closeout tailor. Where can everybody find you online?  

[01:05:43] Taylor: you can follow me on Instagram. My username is hello, dot That's my username for all my other stuff. So yeah, you can find me pretty much anywhere with that username.  

[01:05:57] Matthew Holliday: Nice Nice Cassie. 

[01:06:01] EmoHippieChick: On Instagram. My modeling account is emo hippie chick that's emo, H I P P I E M a chick. I'm just all one word 

[01:06:12] Matthew Holliday: because I've been seeing you around for a years. 

[01:06:16] EmoHippieChick: then, um, my photography page is snazzy Cassie photos. So that's snazzy S N a Z Y K Z Y photos, Nancy, Cassie photos. And then I am also on only fans for my modeling work. And that's also emo hippie chick and then emo hippie chick premium for my paid page. 

[01:06:38] Matthew Holliday: And Anastasia. 

[01:06:39] Anastastia Maye: Yeah. And so I'm on Instagram as Anastasia underscore may M a Y E underscore model. And then I have a backup page. That's Anastasia may one word underscore. And my Twitter is Anastasia underscore may and only fans is Anastasia may. One word. Yeah, I think that's about it. 

[01:07:01] EmoHippieChick: Wow. What a way to make it complicated for everyone? 

[01:07:05] Matthew Holliday: You know, I had the same problem by, I did my Instagram first. And then when I went to go make my Twitter, Twitter was like, that is too long. You have to shorten it. So I'm like, oh, and I've got two different names. Ah, it's unfortunate. 

[01:07:20] EmoHippieChick: Or it sucks when you make an account somewhere and you're like username already taken. You're like, no, 

[01:07:25] Matthew Holliday: Yeah. Now with that, we are done. Check us out@thensfwphotographypodcast.com on Twitter as at NSFW photography. And as I mentioned, Instagram's a little different at the NSFW photography podcast and subscribe on your favorite podcast app.